<p>We're considering this program for next summer (son will be rising Junior next year) - anyone have any experiences with it? Thanks!</p>
<p><a href="http://math.bu.edu/people/promys/%5B/url%5D">http://math.bu.edu/people/promys/</a></p>
<p>If you click on the search pulldown on this thread/forum and do an advanced search on a userid called 'Marite', you will get a lot of info on Promys. Her son went to Promys. He is now a matriculating student at Harvard. Unfortunately, she does not participate in this forum anymore.</p>
<p>Plus do an advanced search on 'Promys' or 'PROMYS'.</p>
<p>Marite's S will be back at Promys this summer (third year?), so he must be finding the program very worthwhile.</p>
<p>Depending on where you are, there is also the Ross program at Ohio State and another in Texas (UTA?) you might look into.</p>
<p>Marite's son has indeed found PROMYS very worthwhile. You can find past threads where she and I banter back and forth about the comparative merits of PROMYS vs the one my son (matriculating MIT, turned down Harvard) has attended and loved for the past 4 years, USA/Canada Mathcamp <a href="http://www.mathcamp.org%5B/url%5D">www.mathcamp.org</a>.</p>
<p>Basically, PROMYS is a highly structured program where first timers study only number theory. Mathcamp is a very unstructured, all-you-can-eat mathematical smorgasbord with all kinds of subjects. I think Mathcamp might be a bit more selective. Many of the subjects offered are usually not seen until late college or grad school (like topology) or are actually other fields related to math (CS, physics). Kids who have attended either one are very passionate about "their" program being the best.</p>
<p>The one in Texas is the Texas State University Honors Math Camp in San Marcos. A comprehensive list of math camps all over the country can be found here:
<a href="http://www.ams.org/employment/mathcamps.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.ams.org/employment/mathcamps.html</a></p>
<p>A good place for discussion of various math camps is the forums here:
<a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.org%5B/url%5D">www.artofproblemsolving.org</a></p>
<p>My son attended PROMYS last summer. He loved the program and Boston itself. One of the merits of PROMYS is that the program is highly structured, with more disciplined thinking as a result. It gave a significant boost to his math contest scores.</p>
<p>He was a 16 year old rising senior at the time, but if we had to do it over again, I might have sent him a year earlier. Math competition season usually runs from December to June, so his improved scores came too late for college applications. Your son's timing would be perfect. If you have any questions, post again and I'll get my son to answer.</p>
<p>It will be my S's fourth summer in PROMYS. He will go to Princeton next Fall, so he does not need to go anywhere for admission purposes, but he thought I was crazy when I offered him to have one rest ful summer this year... not going is not an option, he was looking forward to July 3rd all year!</p>
<p>My D went to Mathcamp several years ago, co I can compare. Mathcamp gives more choice (although no, PROMYS is not all about Number Theory!). Not only choice between different fields, but one can also choose the level of his classes. If a student does not want to do homework, he can pick classes with no homework etc. They also have famous scholars giving guest lectures (Conway, the author of Game of Life, comes to mind). </p>
<p>Mathcamp is more expensive, and they only give token finaid, while PROMYS is cheaper and gives finaid up to full ride. (that was actually the reason why our family did not consider Mathcamp at first, and after one summer it's too late... once a kid is hooked on some camp, he does not want to hear about others) :)</p>
<p>Yes, PROMYS is more structured, and it's more about "doing Math" than about "getting familiar with what Math is". I'll try to find my son's posting about PROMYS...</p>
<p>sorry about the "rest ful" spelling, but the engine finds some offence in theletters of this word and substitutes them for ****</p>
<p>Here's my S's posting about PROMYS, with some of the personal info deleted:</p>
<hr>
<p>The most important thing I learned from PROMYS, and I suspect this is true for most people who went, is not number theory, but a way of thinking about mathematics. It is very hard to describe, but the way Glenn teaches number theory is different from any class I've ever taken, and I learned a lot more than the theory itself. What exactly he's teaching is almost irrelevant (though it works better if you haven't seen the subject before, of course).</p>
<p>Also, there are second year courses that you may be interested in. First-years are allowed to take them if they can devote the time to do problem sets for both that and number theory, which is usually not the case, . . .</p>
<p>The courses this year are Algebra, Geometry and Symmetry (I can personally recommend this one), and Values of the Riemann zeta function (which sounds very interesting). Here's a [url=<a href="http://www.promys.org/promys/cmi.html%5Dlink%5B/url">http://www.promys.org/promys/cmi.html]link[/url</a>]. </p>
<p>There are also the research projects. The first years do a set of projects that first years have been doing for a few years, so while they're interesting, they're on material that you've probably seen before. However, there are new second-year projects every year, and they're on very cool stuff that basically hasn't been done
. . .</p>
<p>There is a lot of work. . . . this is for 6 weeks in a row, so you'll be tired by the end of it, especially if you do the extra classes and research projects.</p>
<p>There are not a lot of officially organized non-math activities (Mandatory Fun once a week is pretty much it). Though the students organize fun stuff themselves quite a bit. (And mafia games actually work well after a while . . .)</p>
<p>Oh, and I must also mention that artofproblemsolving.org is slanted towards the Mathcamp kids: there's a lot of Mathcampers on this board, because Mathcamp recommends the site to them, and the kids from PROMYS, Ross and other camps are not represented in the same proportion.</p>
<p>Yeah, I still love Mathcamp, and my D would probably slaughter me for Mathcamp-bashing... but I really feel that S got much more from PROMYS than he could ever get from Mathcamp.</p>
<p>I think kids who attend Mathcamp get as much out of it as they want to put in. There is plenty of math available, and the camp tends to attract kids who want to do as much of it as they can. But if a kid wanted to sleep all day and play bridge all night, there would be nothing preventing them from doing that. No one takes attendance or checks to see if kids are doing problem sets. And there are lots of non-math activities that can be a distraction - yearbook, talent show, field trips, bridge, frisbee, general socializing, classes in things like swing dancing. They basically throw a bunch of extremely mathy kids and adults together for a massive, joyful celebration and just let things happen. Imagine Woodstock for nerds. The kids they try to attract get caught up in the math culture and tend to thrive. But parents have to decide if their own child is going to thrive or flounder with the very high level of freedom. My own child thrived. He never attended PROMYS, so I cannot directly compare. But he did attend MOP twice, which is also highly structured. For him, Mathcamp was much better.</p>
<p>
[quote]
PROMYS is more structured, and it's more about "doing Math" than about "getting familiar with what Math is".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I certainly don't think I would dismiss the courses at mathcamp as simply "getting familiar with what math is". My son covered topology in sufficient depth during one month at Mathcamp that he was able to take and do extremely well in a graduate course in algebraic topology the following fall that had a full semester of topology as a prereq. Students proved all the major theorems associated with undergraduate topology during Mathcamp.</p>
<p>Sorry, I did not mean to "dismiss" the courses at Mathcamp; I don't actually think that "getting familiar" has lesser value. I never thought of Mathcamp as a "joke" camp, as some called it some time ago at Mathcounts board.</p>
<p>And yeah, one (especially a gifted kid) can learn a semester worth of stuff in 3 - 6 summer weeks - many CTY kids do just that every summer, and of course, PROMYS and Ross give at least that much material (somehow the kids also get much of Abstract Algebra, so S was explaining fields to his sister for her PhD course...). But that's not the point, and I don't think I can explain - I actually thought it is explained in my S's words better... The main difference is not in the structure (actually, PROMYS is not as heavily structured as the Olympiad camps - one can "successfully" flounder there, too :) )</p>
<p>S took lots of Math courses at two top universities, and he also attended one of the Olympiad camps - and he still thinks that the Ross/PROMYS way of teaching is different, and it was very beneficial for him personally as a budding matematician. I am not telling that this way is necessarily better, it just has more to do with doing Math and thinking about Math than with the standard scheme "teacher gives, student learns" - for example, the kids try to solve a set of problems, and only after that will they have a lecture on that topic. They dive into one field, and they touch the relevant topics from other fields, but it's all connected, and they start seeing the "big picture". In Mathcamp (for my daughter) it was "what will I take next week - Knot Theory or Topology?"</p>
<p>PROMYS is probably closer to RSI and to Clay Academy than to normal "college-style" education... actually, their research topics are often echoing ones at RSI. </p>
<p>And oh yeah, they are "Woodstock for nerds", too - I'd say, all such camps are. They just have less pre-set activities. They can basically do whatever they want with their free time (that is, if they find some) - there's much less supervision than in Mathcamp (which probably will not look as a positive feature for many of the parents). The kids can go to Boston whenever they want, there's no "lights-out" - they can spend all night in the lounge doing problems together or playing games, if they have a JC playing with them... The one thing I actually don't like about PROMYS is that S learned to "pull all-nighters" there.... :)</p>
<p>my son has done Mathcamp, RSI, Clay, and MOP, so can directly compare those. He has friends who have done Ross and PROMYS, and they've engaged in discussion of the similarities and differences. I agree with the comment that Mathcamp and Ross/PROMYS should be viewed as complementary, not competing.</p>
<p>Here's an analogy - Ross/PROMYS is structured and linear. It's sort of like learning a foreign language by taking a course where you learn present tense and 100 vocabulary words and one verb tense per month and systematically move through a defined set of material. The haphazardness of Mathcamp is like learning a foreign language by landing in a country and trying to make sense of what's going on. One is not inherently "better" than the other. It's 2 very different styles, which may appeal to different people. Students who enjoy knowing a smattering about a lot of things and pulling together seemingly unconnected things may prefer mathcamp. Students who are more goal oriented, and want to cover some defined set of material may prefer PROMYS. </p>
<p>I've had an off-list discussion about the Moore Method, which involves students discovering math by working through a set of problems. Class time consists of students presenting their solutions to problems and critiquing others' solution. Ross/PROMYS is apparently very much in this vein. Mathcamp always has at least one month-long class taught by Moore Method (including the toplogy course my son took). Other classes are more of a lecture format.</p>
<p>RSI involves research projects. That's an option at math camp for students who want to do that, but not in any way a requirement (nothing is a requirement).</p>
<p>I went to Mathcamp '04. I could easily write a very long post promoting Mathcamp, but it's not really relevant to the OP's post. However, I would like to comment on a couple things said:</p>
<p>"They can basically do whatever they want with their free time (that is, if they find some) - there's much less supervision than in Mathcamp (which probably will not look as a positive feature for many of the parents)."</p>
<p>I can guarantee that this isn't true - at least in these few years for Mathcamp. It is as far away from structure or supervision as can possibly be imagined. There are no lights-out, no bed-checks, no closing times. The single restriction is that in the evening, each camper must sign a sheet to let the counselors know they're still alive. I went star-gazing at three am. I played a six hour monopoly game that ended right before my first class (I lost.) And trips outside the campus are not a problem at all.</p>
<p>"They dive into one field, and they touch the relevant topics from other fields, but it's all connected, and they start seeing the "big picture". In Mathcamp (for my daughter) it was "what will I take next week - Knot Theory or Topology?""</p>
<p>I agree - those connections that develop allow the student to gain a lot from the subject. Mathcamp's classes run along this format: Long classes that run the entire length of the camp. These classes generally have an enormous amount of material, and they involve a lot of work. (Set theory comes to mind, taught by Moore Method .) Then there are various shorter classes (one or two weeks.) The great thing about these classes is that they connect with the later ones (classes at Mathcamp after the first or second week start having pre-reqs). So if you liked the Abstract Algebra course in the first two weeks, you take the Fields course the third week and Category Theory the fourth week. These classes are hardly an introduction, considering how much material is covered.</p>
<p>For kids interested in problem-solving improvement during the summer, two kids from Michigan attended Mathcamp last summer. They previously ranked about 120 and 80 in the statewide MMPC competition. The year after Mathcamp? 1 and 2.</p>
<p>texas137:
[quote]
He has friends who have done Ross and PROMYS, and they've engaged in discussion of the similarities and differences.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My S was probably one of them: they've met at Clay.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One is not inherently "better" than the other. It's 2 very different styles, which may appeal to different people.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's exactly what I was trying to tell... :)</p>
<p>marmat:</p>
<p>breaking my self-imposed absence from CC, I sent you a PM!</p>
<p>Does anyone have an opinion on how these programs are for the younger kids? Anyone with a 15 or 14 year old (rising soph or even frosh) that attended? Are most of the attendees older? Do you think the work load is too much for the ones on the younger side? How about the freedom? It sounds like both mathcamp and promys are sort of wide-open in that respect. What about Hampshire? It seems to have a more closed environment. Also, any input on San Marcos? Is it a good option or is it in a totally different league? It seems that the top math camp lists tend to include Ross, Promys, mathcamp, Hampshire and Sumac but I've read that San Marcos is similar in style to Ross and Promys...but no problems to send in with the app. </p>
<p>Sorry about all of the questions. I keep reading these threads and probably somewhere someone (maybe tokenadult) discussed all of this already!</p>
<p>Critter:</p>
<p>Texas can reply about Mathcamp. If I'm not mistaken it does accept kids younger than 14. PROMYS accepts only kids above 14 (though I know some exceptions have been made in the past). A very high proportion of the first years are 14 or 15, and they constitute the majority of the students at PROMYS.
Although students are pretty much free to do what they want at PROMYS, the workload is such that they don't stray far from BU. Although we live across the river, my S came home only twice last year (for the superior mom's cooking :)).
My S found the workload heavy but not unmanageable. There is a heavy stress placed on work ethics. He knows some kids who goofed off, which is easy to do. There is an end of session exam, however, and those who did not do well on it and on the homework are not invited to re-apply. Kids form study groups which become tight-knit social groups as well. Except for a couple of kids already in college and another couple who could not make it this year, practically all the friends my S made in his first summer at PROMYS are returning for a 3rd time. As he describes it, PROMYS is math+friendship, an unbeatable combination. I suspect a lot of other math camps are like that, too.</p>
<p>critter:</p>
<p>My D went at 14 (almost 15). Maybe if she were older, she would be more comfortable with the course selection: I guess she was kind of lost, choosing her classes rather randomly, and she probably did not use all the opportunities presented by Mathcamp (as described in this topic). Anyway, she enjoyed it immensely (and my exited postings at Mathcounts board 4 or 5 years ago about her experiences might have contributed to attracting Texas's attention to Mathcamp) :)</p>
<p>And Matcamp was not that wide-open at that time: kids had to find at least one "buddy" to go to town; they had to sign out when leaving the campus with this buddy, and they had to stay at their rooms after the evening check-in... Looks like all that changed now.</p>
<p>S started at 13, and there was a 12-year-old girl in PROMYS that year. But that was the last year when Boston University allowed kids under 14 to live in their dorms. It's not PROMYS's decision, but they just can't accept anybody under 14 now. :( It's a shame, actually, because Mathcamp has better advertisement, and by the time these kids turn 14, they will be already committed to Mathcamp (I guess that's what will happen with tokenadult's S).</p>
<p>Both D and S were tired by the end of summer; but both of them were also very excited and didn't want to leave. So, it's quite all right to send younger kids in either camp - although at 16-17 they will probably regain more from the experience.</p>
<p>There are also several good camps for middle-schoolers (CMST, MathPath), which might be better for younger kids.</p>
<p>My son attended Mathcamp for the first time at age 14. There were plenty of other kids his age, and it worked out well for them. They match up roommmates by age, so he was in a triple with two other 14-15 year olds. Mathcamp also has a sister program for middle school kids called Mathpath.</p>
<p>Mathcamp is not wide-open at all in a supervision/safety sense, and I would not worry about a 14-15 year old from that standpoint. We personally took him to the first couple of Mathcamps to check out the location and hear the orientation. It is always held at some small self-contained college campus, and there are rules about leaving campus (I don't remember exactly what they are, but I could ask my son). Campers must check in every evening at a particular time. They don't have to stay in their rooms after that time, but I think they do have to stay in the dorm.</p>
<p>I can actually talk a little bit about the San Marcos program also. I coach a math team in Texas and have had several kids from the team go there, at about the age you're talking about. They all liked it and had a good experience. Because the program is fairly new, it is not as well known as some of the others. It mostly attracts Texas kids. It gets strong kids, but is less selective than other camps, and so far has not attracted the truly stand-out, top kids in the state, some of whom have done other programs. A large number of the kids on the Texas ARML team have gone at one point or another, and the ARML coach (who is fabulous!) is one of the teachers. The camp is heavily subsidized by corporate sponsors, which makes the cost to families very reasonable. The campus where the camp is held is very attractive, and San Marcos is a very nice community. UT-Austin is about 45 minutes away, so they are able to draw from there for guest lecturers.</p>