<p>Marmat:</p>
<p>More PMs from me!</p>
<p>more on supervision at Mathcamp - campers cannot leave campus w/o a staff member. They are free to wander around the campus during the day, but after evening check in they must be in a dorm, or at a camp activity (some of which occur late at night, particularly the last week), or in a group which inlcudes a staff member. After midnight, the dorm lounges are cleared to encourage kids to go to bed. But there's no bed check, and campers can continue socializing in their rooms after that. And staff-members are pretty available to accompany groups of campers who want to go off-campus to a movie or restaurant or whatever.</p>
<p>For children in the age range from twelve to fifteen, a really good choice for a math summer program is [url=<a href="http://www.mathpath.org%5DMathPath%5B/url">http://www.mathpath.org]MathPath[/url</a>], which is where my son is now. I drove him over there and stayed for about the first twenty-four hours of camp. MathPath is a well-run operation with fabulous math instruction. The founder of MathPath, George R. Thomas, was earlier the founder of MathCamp, and he has designed MathPath to be more suitable for middle-school age kids than MathCamp. (MathCamp's minimum age is thirteen, by the way, although the mean age is higher.) </p>
<p>I'll know more when I go pick up my son in a month, but so far he is sounding happy on the phone and he appeared to be enjoying his interaction with classmates before I left MathPath. </p>
<p>P.S. I guess I can come out of lurk mode now that this thread has mentioned my screen name and Marite has come out of lurk mode too. Welcome back, Marite.</p>
<p>Mathcamp gives scholarships. Some are automatic based on income; those are up to 1/3 of the tuition. Students may apply for additional need-based scholarships. There are no merit-based scholarships.</p>
<p>Thanks for all of the information everyone! I have more questions but this stupid thing keeps wiping out my posts. I'll try again tomorrow-so I hope that none of you helpful math folks disappear in the meantime!</p>
<p>Maybe I'll try one more time after all-it seems to be ok now or else this is just a cruel joke!</p>
<p>I'm glad that Marite and tokenadult have come out of 'lurk' mode because I used to be able to get all kinds of great information from you both and lately I have actually had to quit lurking and ask my own questions. Just lazy, I guess! Maybe we are still suffering form post-traumatic-stress-syndrome form going through this process with oldest, now a college jr. We also have a HS jr who is not giving us any trouble at the moment, but there is still time! It seems almost too much to deal with younger sibling at this point but I can't let the opportunity get away. I'm afraid that you knowledgeable math people may disappear again,so here goes.</p>
<p>Marmat-you have a math daughter too? I have a few math/girl questions, if you don't mind. Is she still going down the math road or have her interests changed? I know the mathcamp site says that1/4 of the kids are girls. How did that go for your D? Are the girls treated differently there? I'm not implying sexism or anything llike that, it's just that they seem to actively recruit girls, even financially. Do they have any activites specifically for girls? Thanks.</p>
<p>Marite- I've had my D read bits about your son this year for motivation (she can relate to him, unlike the kids around here) and she really liked the math+friendship comment about PROMYS. Are there fewer girls at PROMYS too? We are form the west coast. Are most of the kids there from NE and if so do you think that cliques would be a problem?</p>
<p>Texas 137- D like what you posted about San Marcos. Would someone from outside of Texas feel out of place there? She has no way to do the ARML (?)here and she attends the HS mathteam meetings and helps others prepare for competitions but she is too young to compete. Would lack of competitive experience make her feel like she was way out of her league? For that matter, would it make it impossible to get into one of these camps?</p>
<p>tokenadult- I'm glad that I mentioned you and then you appeared. Sort of like summoning a genie! First of all, thanks for pitching the A of PS site. D and I have both enjoyed the resources there. Please keep us posted about sons' summer experience and his choices for next year. You obviously help others more than you know.</p>
<p>In general- D had a few other questions. I think this thread has a Harvard-bound kid, two(?) to Pton and one to MIT? Why those schools? Ok, that sounds dumb, we all know they are great for math but did anyone consider a strong math LAC like Williams? How about a state honors program? What is the plan after undergrad? Math doc/prof, professional degree/MD etc...no clue? She's trying to figure out how and why math kids end up where they do.</p>
<p>tokenadult-does son have any academic/career aspirations at this point? It's early days for our kids. I guess we will be here forever! Still, D is already getting the 'what can you do with math' question and we really don't have lot of math resources around here. You have asked many good questions and we have avidly watched for the answers. That's one reason she would like to go to math camp...for the fun, challenge and hopefully for some answers.</p>
<p>One more thing. Has anyone gotten help from the staff at math camps about college and career possibilities? Thanks so much! This is annoyingly long so I will stop now. I am having flashbacks from D #1's experience and the too-frequent posting that was done on another site that shall remain nameless. Now I remember why I lurk. Too much time involved in this psoting process!</p>
<p>Critter:</p>
<p>There are definitely fewer girls at PROMYS. The ratio of girls to boys is perhaps 1:5. It does not matter unduly, I think. Boys and girls are housed separately. Study groups form naturally along hallways, among roommates, so the groups probably self-segregate by sex. I would not say there are cliques, but there are definitely different groups of friends based on the study groups. Returning students are roommed with first years; this is how my S's original circle of friends expanded last summer.
While most of the students probably come from the East Coast, my S's friends include one from AR, one from CA and one from FL. Others come from MA, NY and NJ. I know of two students who were from MI and one from TX.
Among his friends already in college or about to go to college, these were the picks: Harvard, Cornell, MIT, Princeton, Caltech and Harvey Mudd. We did consider Williams for my S but became concerned that it might not have the more advanced courses he will need at some point during his undergraduate career.
I don't think that PROMYS offers formal college counseling. The senior counselors are college students (some are graduate students); the junior counselors are college-bound students who have previously attended PROMYS. I tried to suggest to my S that he should ask his various counselors about college but he had too much fun doing other things to ask. He eventually emailed a couple of them.
On what can you do with math? Go to the math website of Brown. It lists some of the careers that math graduates have followed. One of the highest paying math careers is actuary. Your D might also like to read the info on "Seamless Computational Fashion" organized by students at MIT's Media Lab. It's a hoot. One of the organizers is a Harvard grad, now at MIT, who was an applied math major . She was in my S's classical geometry class last year.</p>
<p>Critter -</p>
<p>Your daughter might enjoy reading about Melanie Wood (first female to represent the US at the Int'l Math Olympiad). There was an article about her in Discover magazine. Read here:
<a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_6_21/ai_62277745%5B/url%5D">http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_6_21/ai_62277745</a></p>
<p>I think someone from outside Texas would fit in just fine at the San Marcos camp (but be prepared for heat!). They are actively trying to increase the number of non-Texans and draw from a more nat'l pool. But a lot more Texas kids than other states' kids know about it, so it's been more Texas kids so far. The program is only 5-6 years old. I would imagine that the number of kids from other states will continue to grow every year. Meanwhile, the Texas kids are from sufficiently far-flung communities that most of them won't know each other when they arrive, so it isn't like there's a Texas clique or anything. The kids who already know each other from the Texas ARML team (American Regions Mathematics League) will not make up a significant percentage or know each other very well. I think admission and financial aid might actually favor non-Texas kids. Something like half the adult population of the biggest cities moved here from some other state anyway. (btw - other states also have ARML teams. It is not a Texas thing.)</p>
<p>There are plenty of very talented math kids who have no interest at all in ever competing. Competitions are one way to show a high level of interest in math, but certainly not the only way. There are plenty of kids at all these math programs who have no competition experience and who may or may not want to compete in the future.</p>
<p>All of these camps have college students working as counselors, so campers get some informal input even if there isn't a formal "College Night". And there will be lots of slightly older kids talking about applying.</p>
<p>My son is the MIT kid. He also applied to Harvard, Caltech, Stanford. He chose MIT because he plans to dual major in math and CS. He excluded Williams and Harvey Mudd in part for the same reason Marite's son did - there would not have been enough advanced courses. But both kids are unusual in that respect and had a lot of college math courses in high school (my son had several math grad courses). I think either of those schools would be an excellent choice for all but a handful of math kids.</p>
<p>Another good place to discuss college selection and other topics of interest to math kids and their parents is the forums at <a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com%5B/url%5D">www.artofproblemsolving.com</a>.</p>
<p>Besides colleges listed by Texas or myself, I would count Chicago, Duke, Michigan, Wisconsin, UIUC, Berkeley, Stanford, Yale and Columbia; Brown has an excellent applied math program and its physics department is more experimental than theoretical (one reason S did not apply there although he had a fabulous visit). There are also many LACs or smaller universities with top-notch math departments: Colby, Carleton, Wesleyan come to mind, but there are many others.</p>
<p>My S is one of those kids with little interest in competitions. He went to an elementary school that de-emphasized competition to the nth degree, and we've also encouraged him not to compare himself against others as way of giving him the self-confidence to tackle more advanced courses. He did go to the Harvard-MIT Math Tournament last Spring and met up with at least half his friends from PROMYS! Unfortunately, they did not have time to hang out as some had to catch planes, buses, etc...
On the topic of girls and math, another inspiring story is that of Sarah Flannery, the author of In Code. It's so inspiring that I had a hard time preventing my H from setting up a whiteboard in the kitchen so that S and he could do math while eating dinner.</p>
<p>Another book recommendation - Countdown by Steve Olsen. It uses the US team to the 2001 IMO as a framework for discussion, but goes off generally into how math is taught in various countries, the nature of mathematical talent, and other more general topics including girls in mathematics. Melanie is mentioned briefly in the book, although she was already in college (Duke) and was not on the team. For an update, she is now a math grad student (Princeton) and involved in coaching the IMO team.</p>
<p>I'll second all of Marite's suggestions of colleges to look at. Duke has attracted some key math girls, in particular, and seem to have done a particularly good job of fostering their talent. From what I understand through the grapevine, Melanie was very happy with her choice of Duke, and she could have gone anywhere in the country. </p>
<p>I would also add Rice to Marite's list. The Harvard-MIT math competition that Marite referred to was started by 2 Texas kids at those schools who patterned it after a similar competition they had participated in at Rice when they were in high school. The top math kids here generally all apply to a bunch of out of state HYPSM-type schools, plus Rice.</p>
<p>How could I forget Rice? Cynthia Lanius at Rice has a wonderful math website.</p>
<p>In answer to critter's question, my son's self-reported career aspirations have been shifting to computer science during the last few months. It will be interesting to see if that nudges back in the direction of pure mathematics after MathPath is over. Our state U is a pretty strong "safety" school for most of the interests he has had over the past several years, but I suppose he will apply to some of the famous reach schools too. The school that put on the best show in its public information meeting, in my son's opinion, was MIT last year. Marite and I went to different MIT regional information sessions on the same day last year, and the one in this state was quite enticing. But anyone applying to MIT had better have plenty of plan B schools, as admission to MIT is hardly a sure thing for anyone.</p>
<p>critter:</p>
<p>D is in PhD program at UIUC, but she is thinking about just gettig Master's degree or maybe switching. She is taking Information Science and Education classes to see if maybe those careers will be better fit for her. She did undergrad research in Knot Theory (might be an echo from Mathcamp!), and presented it at a conference, but after that she apparently decided that research is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life. Well, she got her Bachelor's at 19, and she is supporting herself at graduate school, so she has now plenty of time and opportunities to try different directions...</p>
<p>Here are some links about Math careers:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ns.msu.edu/acrc/career_exploration/math.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.ns.msu.edu/acrc/career_exploration/math.asp</a>
<a href="http://online.onetcenter.org/%5B/url%5D">http://online.onetcenter.org/</a>
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco1002.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco1002.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.worldwit.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.worldwit.org/</a>
<a href="http://www.amstat.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=main%5B/url%5D">http://www.amstat.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=main</a>
<a href="http://finmath.com/Quant_Job.html%5B/url%5D">http://finmath.com/Quant_Job.html</a>
<a href="http://www.wilmott.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.wilmott.com/</a> </p>
<p>D does not recall any specific activities for girls at Mathcamp, but she was never "a girly girl", so she might just not notice. Her favourite non-math activity there was soccer (no, she never played soccer at school). Mathcamp did not offer scholarships for girls at the time she went: there was only need-based "tuition reduction" up to $800 (now it's up to $1200), and the rest was left to the student's fundraising efforts. I don't remember if they offered merit-based aid at the time (apparently they do now). D was lucky to have enthusiastic teachers who helped her to find sponsors, and her school district had some not-used-by-the-end-of-year money, but it was a once-in-lifetime opportunity. S was a homeschooler and could not count on such luck, so he went to PROMYS not knowing anything about it (other that his CMST instructor recommended it, and its cost was less than half of Mathcamp's).</p>
<p>D participated in ARML as a member of Indiana team (we lived in IL at that time, but all the IL teams are located in Chicago; IN guys invited several kids from our city to their team). So you could check <a href="http://www.arml.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.arml.com/</a> to see if you have a team nearby. S went to trainings with his sister and had a lot of fun (he was at 6 grade at the time, so we didn't think about him actually competing, but maybe we should've - there was an 8-grader on their team) How old is your daughter? Mathcounts do allow individuals to compete now, so she could participate even it her school does not have a team. USAMTS (and USACO if she is into programmong) do not have any age requirements, and she could also take AMC-10 or AMC-12 in High School (if the school will allow her). If she is advanced in Math, she could do quite well. Actually, my S's interest in competitions peaked at 6-7 grades; after that, he was interested in different kind of Math and did not put much effort into the competitions. So, in my opinion, it's better to start competitions as soon as the kid is ready, otherwise she can just miss her best years.</p>
<p>S did not really consider LACs because of the same reasons as marite's and texas's kids. He needs classes at graduate level, and preferably in a place with opportunities for research. Besides, he became interested in CS and Theoretical Physics recently, and he might also like Economics or something along the lines of Bioinformatics after he tries some courses, so he prefers to be in a place where he can find exellent teachers in many fields, including Engineering. In addition, we don't feel really comfortable sending him too far from NJ at 16 - if he wanted to stay at school for 1 or 2 more years, he'd probably consider broader selection of colleges.</p>
<p>I like marite's list of "mathematical" colleges. Even for "top" kids, there's more choice that HPCMS. One of S's friends from PROMYS chose Duke(A.B. Scholar) over MIT, Caltech (full ride), Stanford, Princeton, and others... There are many choices, and one should weight all the options offered by the particular programs (but people reading collegeconfidential surely know that already) .</p>
<p>Re Girls and PROMYS: I have just finished dropping my son off at PROMYS and can tell you that the ratio of girls to boys there this year is 1:3. I overheard someone saying that it was 1:4 last year. That's progress.</p>
<p>I will return with more observations about PROMYS if and when I hear from my son.</p>
<p>A correction to my last post: My husband counted 6 quads of girls and 11 quads of boys on the list of this year's PROMYS students, so the ratio of girls to boys is more like 1:2 than 1:3. (Math was never my own strong point.)</p>
<p>My son, by the way, is a rising junior, so I am hoping the program will start him thinking about future directions as well as stimulate his growth in math and allow him to spend six weeks with kids who all speak the same language he does, for a change. There's a lot of useful information in the previous posts. Thank you!</p>
<p>Pesto:</p>
<p>We must have been at PROMYS at the same time! My S happily settled down to a card game in the lounge with his chums and left me to do the unpacking. When I returned to the lounge, the card circle had enlarged. The cookies that grandma had optimistically estimated would last for several weeks had pretty much been consumed by the time we left.
I hope your S enjoys his experience.</p>
<p>Marite:</p>
<p>I wish I had been able to connect with you yesterday! I confess I left Boston yesterday feeling rather unsettled about the PROMYS program, mainly because of the lack of welcoming by staff members and because of conflicting or insufficient information for parents about practical details. I was expecting to be enlightened at the 6:00 orientation, to which parents seemed to have been invited according to the literature, but the parents of my son's roommate checked with their counselor about it and were told that it wasn't for parents after all. So we all left. Another minor snafu: When we went to buy the four books on the list, one title wasn't on the shelf, having been replaced with another one but with no signs about the substitution, so we only bought three, which means my S will have to truck back to the bookstore to buy the fourth one. Also, the literature said the books would add up to about $100, and the three we did buy were $146, so the final cost of all four will probably be closer to $200. Not a big deal, but we only put a $100 allotment for books in my S's bank account, and he would have been short on spending money if he had bought the books after we left. I guess my main concern, however, is how we are going to keep in touch with him. We've been counting on e-mail but didn't get to hear how that will work. (He has his own computer there, but I'm guessing he won't be able to use it for internet access.) He doesn't have a cell phone -- we told him to use the pay phone if he has something urgent to talk to us about and otherwise use e-mail or (gasp!) snail mail. The fact that we are leaving for a two-week trip to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland in a few days makes me all the more antsy about making sure he's okay there.</p>
<p>So I sort of stewed during the whole ride home and fired off an e-mail to him, like a message in a bottle. After thinking about it some more, though, I decided that people who are dwelling deep within the abstract world of number theory probably don't have much mind left for the mundane details of the physical world (my son is certainly a microcosmic exemplar of this hypothetical mathy mind), and so I have tried to put all my little complaints to rest.</p>
<p>But the most reassuring thing was going back to this thread on CC and reading your comments about the program. I know my S will be happy as a clam in that environment. I'm just a bit of a worrier.</p>
<p>Pesto:
Too bad we did not connect. We had to go back to BU because S had forgotten his internet cable, and he did not mention the cost of books. He, too, has only $100 for spending money. I am surprised, though, at the cost of books, because I don't remember my S spending much the first two times he was there.</p>
<p>The site has been moved this year from the Towers to the Warren Towers and check-in is much less chaotic than it used to be. In the Towers, all programs were set up in the same lobby. Now, there is a different registration site for each of them. If you saw the card-playing circle in the lounge just outside the registration room, my S was in there, wearing a red PROMYS T-shirt from two years back.</p>
<p>We, too, have found that orientation does not cater much to parents. We sat through the 6pm orientation last year mostly to find out what students were being told. When we returned to BU with the internet cable at around 9PM, we saw one of S's friends leading a small group of first years out of the building, presumably on an orientation tour.</p>
<p>We found out that Warren Towers is accessible by cell phone. The Towers were a dead zone and S hardly ever called home, except to say the food was lousy. So last year, he and his friends rode the T to our house for lunch.</p>
<p>So now S has a cell phone and presumably can get email. If you want your S to make use of my S's cell phone or his email, send me a PM and we''ll figure ways for our two Ss to connect.</p>
<p>Dropped S yesterday, too. He was a pirate with an "iPatch" over his eye. :)</p>
<p>I heard one of the counselors answering a parent's question about books that they are optional: it's good to have them, but one can make it through the course not having any of them. I believe they are telling this in details during the orientation (as far as I remember, S did not buy any textbooks his first year). The orientation is for students, but parents can certainly stay if they are curious. I did stay (and even taped some) during S's first and second drop-off, it was interesting to learn about the program and to listen how everybody is telling something about him- or herself. But it's not necessary.</p>
<p>Some kids were calling home every day; ours dutifully contacted us once a week (as we asked him), and that was that. This year he is going to update his livejournal often, and he invited us to pick up the news there. He'll start as soon as they get the computer access (in two or three days, I guess). His friend updated his journal already, so I guess the kids with laptops are able to connect to the Web right away.</p>
<p>Thank you, Marite and Marmat for your responses. Marite, if I haven't gotten an e-mail from my son by Wednesday, I might take you up on the cell phone offer. Marmat, yes, I did see your son!</p>