As we continue to look at colleges for my son (11th grade), we are bumping up against the same issue. The school looks like a great fit academically, location, size, etc. but the person who teaches viola is actually a violinist who teaches both.
Have any of you (or your kids) pursued viola at college with a teacher whose primary instrument is violin?
This is not unusual in schools with smaller string departments or music departments. You can request a lesson, for which payment might be expected, from a teacher if all else looks good for a school. You might also look into the orchestra experience available in situations like this. Just make sure the quality is what you want - sometimes, if it’s a smaller school, it is hard to put together a full contingent of players and some of the players may be non-majors who aren’t the level you would hope for.
Violinists often study viola as secondary instruments and are often excellent players and teachers of both instruments. I’m the mom of one young professional who teaches both instruments and plays both professionally as situations arise!
The answer to your question is it depends on the teacher, pure and simple. There are a number of people out there who are viola players who started on the violin, that is not just a stereotype, and there are people who have seriously studied both, some did violin as UG while studying viola, then for a masters did Viola, and some may have played viola predominantly but learned violin along the way.
While even the big schools have teachers who can teach both, usually at the college level they are differentiated and most will teach one or the other, whatever their specialty is. I can understand a smaller school doing that, it means not having to have as many faculty.
Again it comes back to the person teaching, if they are a viola teacher who also teaches violin, and the student is a viola student, it may work better.My own experience is that one size fits all teachers tend to teach one a lot better than the other, so I would recommend in that case to gain some exposure to the teacher to see how good they are. Violin and viola are not the same instrument, while they are similar there is a lot that is different IMO (not being a string player, take that FWIW).
The other concern about a program where they have dual teachers like that quite honestly is if they are that small that they use generalists like that to cover both instruments, how good is the program? As others have said, a small program like that could be filling positions in orchestra and chamber with non majors, and that can be less than condusive to someone doing a performance degree, and to be blunt, I wonder about the level of a teacher teaching both like that, it could be they got the job, not because they are necessarily a good teacher, but because they could teach both, which is great for the school, but maybe not so much for the student. It probably would be less of a concern for a student who simply wanted to play music in college, versus someone doing performance.
In addition to the lesson, some questions he might ask the instructor include
Certainly, a good teacher can teach different instruments, up to a certain level.
Another point possibly not discovered on a school’s website is that the school may bring in an adjunct professor of viola if necessary on a part time basis.
The viola faculty at Bard Conservatory includes some of the preeminent viola professors in the country, and yet there is also a professor who teaches both violin and viola: http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/faculty/?action=details&id=3729 and is principal guest violist of the Shanghai Symphony Orchestra. So, I think the answer is - it varies, depending on the teacher! It’s not necessarily that it’s a small program.
^and, of course, there’s Pinchas Zukerman and Maxim Vengerov, both of whom play and record on both violin and viola. There were students back in my day studying violin with DeLay and viola with Primrose. As noted above, don’t count a teacher out until you’ve tried a lesson or two.
As Stradmom notes, I would be very careful if you think about interviewing a prospective teacher on the differences between the two instruments or their knowledge of the repertoire. Maybe a casual conversation, but nothing that would appear like questions that are more appropriate in a job interview setting.
One of the answers to the question is the teacher’s background and who they studied with. Someone who has studied with, as one poster said, with Delay and Primrose (two of the top in their respective fields at the time), is likely to be strong on both instruments, same goes for Zukerman and Vengerov, if you get into the studio of people like that, you have to be good on it. Some violin/viola dual instrumentalists taught themsevles, for example, to play the viola, which I don’t think would be a great thing in a teacher, or if the person in question studied with teachers who themselves were not considered very high level, how good can the teacher teach? The answer is going to lie in the teacher and how they gained their training, if the teacher studied with respected teachers on both instruments, it may bode well for them teaching a violist, if they studied with a great violin teacher, but the viola teacher seemed not so great, I would be very hesitant, or worse, if it was a violin teacher who says they play the viola and basically taught themselves. This is going to be huge if this is a small program, if you ended up studying with a ‘dual’ teacher at a big school and it didn’t work out, you likely would have other choices, at small programs you may only have the 1, it is something to think about when choosing a program.
Thanks for all the replies. This is pretty much what I thought I’d hear.
I was glad for the honesty of the “viola and violin are not the same instrument … there is a lot that is different” post, and it’s the part that makes me the most sad for my kid. He’s had the chance to take lessons with some amazing viola teachers, and it’s thrilled and inspired him. This is why I’m pretty sure a violinist who works as an adjunct viola teacher to fill some obligation to teach the violists in the college symphony isn’t going to fuel his passion. I’ve watched a few YouTube videos of viola faculty and thought. “Wow. That’s what he’s got to look forward to?” That would be like four more years of his high school orchestra. He wants to grow! But he’s not interested in a conservatory. He wouldn’t fit in there. He doesn’t want to be perfect. He wants to play beautiful music - with others! This collaboration with others in orchestra and chamber groups really lights his fire. But when the group is mediocre, it’s just an exercise in frustration.
I keep looking at schools that would be great for him in all other regards and then I get to the music faculty and see no violists, just a violinist who teaches viola. A couple have performed on both - I’m sure someone like that would be perfect, but in most cases it really does look like they taught it to themselves so they could teach.
Here are a few of the schools we’re considering that do have viola faculty. We looked at Furman. He didn’t care for the school or the vibe in the town. He’d visit again, though, just to be sure. It was a gut feeling though, so I don’t think that’ll change. He likes App State and the viola teacher there. I’m not so sure how I feel about the rest of App State. In the end it’s his choice. University of Tennessee Knoxville looks really intriguing, and I’m trying to get him to ask for a lesson with their viola professor. UGA might be an option, and I think we’ll visit there soon. JMU will probably be too expensive. OOS and we don’t qualify for any need-based aid. But I think it would be a great school. We’ll visit. University of Puget Sound is another school we’re looking at. Then there’s Ohio State, Penn State (maybe a reach - waiting for test scores), Indiana. Many of these will likely end up being more than I’m willing to pay. That number may change, I guess. It’s hard to know until we see what options he has, but cost is a big factor for us for reasons that aren’t addressed in FAFSA or CSS.
Thanks again for the input. If anyone has studied viola under a teacher who is primarily a violinist, I’d love to hear your thoughts.
@heidekraut, have you looked at DePaul’s School of Music? The viola teacher (Rami Solomonow) there is terrific, the rest of the string faculty is fantastic, and the School of Music can be very generous with aid.
I hadn’t looked at DePaul, but I just made a quick trip through their website and it looks pretty interesting. I’ll have my son take a look, but I think it’s definitely worth a visit. Thanks for the tip!
One question, is your son planning a dual degree kind of thing, is he planning on a performance degree, or does he plan on majoring in something else and playing music as kind of an EC?
Tim Deighton at Penn State is a terrific violist and a wonderful teacher.
“If anyone has studied viola under a teacher who is primarily a violinist, I’d love to hear your thoughts.”
First, I think your concern and the checking you are doing is quite valid. Having said that, I would rephrase the issue.
I believe what you are looking for is a teacher who works well with your son. Whether their primary instrument is violin or viola is secondary. You need to assess the individual’s ability to teach viola and to be the sort of match your son needs. I don’t think you are going to get a fair or complete picture by focusing on experiences of violists who have studied under “switch hitters” - some will be terrific, others less so as teachers’ abilities, strengths and weaknesses vary greatly - even at college and/or conservatory level.
Similarly, while a fine starting point, it may not be possible to assess a potential instructor’s ability to teach viola based on a resume. Some wonderful teachers have mediocre resumes and I have most decidedly seen teachers with great resumes whom I would never recommend. Do try to get to a number of places for a private lesson. The youtube idea is a good one, but I should also mention that some of the best pedagogues don’t currently perform.
Following up on Musicprnt’s question, is your S simply hoping to continue lessons and playing in college or will he be a music major? If the latter, I would be very concerned about “He doesn’t want to be perfect.”. Also, the desire “He wants to play beautiful music - with others!”, while understandable, is a bit confusing to me as, for an aspiring professional musician, the desire to perform well is a constant quest for perfection . (I recognize that the your statements probably don’t express the whole picture of your S - forum threads make that impossible. I truly don’t mean to be offensive, just trying to understand what the two of you are looking for.)
@Momofadult, thanks for the thoughtful post. You make some excellent points (and I didn’t take any offense). I wish we had enough time to take lessons with more teachers as I agree that’s the only way to get a good sense of how teacher and student will get on together. I’d love to get to Tacoma, Chicago, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Georgia, the list goes on. But between school, symphony practice, volunteer commitments, the odd already-scheduled viola event, standardized tests…there’s hardly any time. Spring break isn’t long enough to travel back and forth across the country. Asking here for suggestions seemed worth the effort. So far I’d say it has been.
Let me try to clarify what I meant by “he doesn’t want to be perfect”. I don’t think he’ll ever want to play in a professional orchestra. He’s heard enough about what that life is like and how competitive it is. It’s not in my son’s nature to be that “perfect”. He’s very patient with himself, I guess you could say. If it were me, I’d be far more uptight about my intonation all the time. He seems content to let it come with time. Judging by the feedback I get from other musicians, I’m more critical than I should be. This I generally keep to myself - I’m no tiger mom. If he says he’s too tired to practice, or has too much homework or wants to see his girlfriend, well, then that’s his choice. I have a lot of regrets about not being tougher on him, but he finds his own life balance. I often wish he would (I hate to say it) live up to his potential, try to be perfect. But I think he doesn’t feel the need to please in that way. People are happy with him. He’s happy with himself. He’s only 17, and things change, but I can’t see him on a “constant quest for perfection”.
All that being said, he still wants to be surrounded by good musicians. We sat in on one college orchestra rehearsal and it was really disheartening. Until that point I hadn’t realized how important it would be for him to continue playing viola at college.It was there that I realized he’lll be happiest in a place where he can grow, not a place where he can jump right in and be amongst the strongest in the section. He’s going for another visit at that school all the same because he really liked the viola teacher and we’re hoping that rehearsal was a first read on a bad day. Anything is possible.
Much ado about the music, but he also wants to study chemistry. Thanks to @musicalkids , I took a look at DePaul and saw that they offer 5-year dual degrees. Something like that sounds perfect. i think Oberlin offers something like that, too. But I also think he’d be just as happy in a place where he had a great teacher and could play in a challenging college orchestra (and maybe do some chamber music on the side) while he pursued that chemistry degree. I’m not sure he’d even care about having an official music minor. Who knew viola teachers don’t grow on trees?
That was endless, but thanks again everyone for the suggestions and insight. It’s been helpful.
@heidekraut, this doesn’t answer your question directly, but I’ve made something of a study over the last year of colleges where one can pursue music at a high level without having to be in their conservatory or even necessarily major in music. We’ve been focused on liberal arts colleges that offer merit aid. You’ve already mentioned a couple that would be on my list: Furman and U. of Puget Sound (the latter is very much a top contender for my son – we’re awaiting news from them). Here are several more. The most academically rigorous schools are near the top of the list. Whether or not your child would be a candidate for merit aid would depend on grades and scores:
St. Olaf (Chemistry is very strong here)
Wheaton (IL) Very religious school
Gettysburg
Lawrence U
Illinois Wesleyan
Depauw U
Rollins College
Concordia College (Moorhead, MN)
Luther College
Houghton College
These are all schools that characterize their music departments as “Schools of Music” or conservatories (rather than just, you know, the music department), are accredited, and have a sizable number of majors (and probably very strong ensembles). All of their ensembles are open to the full college, regardless of major, by audition.
I’ll let you figure out whether or not they have true viola teachers!
By the way, Charles Gray at St. Olaf is listed as teaching both violin and viola, but, looking at his bio, viola is clearly his main instrument: http://wp.stolaf.edu/music/people/charles-gray/
The viola teachers at Gettysburg and Lawrence look pretty great, too (I know I said I was going to let YOU look them up!):
https://www.gettysburg.edu/academics/conservatory/faculty/bios/henry.dot
https://www.lawrence.edu/conservatory/faculty/matthew_michelic
While I know that non-conservatory kids can participate in the ensembles at Lawrence and Gettysburg, I’m less clear on whether they can study privately with conservatory faculty. You should inquire about that if those schools pique your interest.
IMHO, a university with conservatory (like IU) would not be a good fit. To make music, you need to be in the conservatory. From what I read of your comments, I would be looking at LACs with a commitment to music - like Lawrence or St. Olaf. A friend’s D went to Lawrence as a history major, did make a good ensemble and had a teacher in the conservatory. She also continued to do competitions. Seats are limited for non-major, I believe, and it may depend on the instrument. But worth a look-see there or other LACs with a strong music commitment.
Lawrence also has a 5 year dual degree program.
This is part of the reason why we’ve been focused on smaller schools, @bridgenail – it seems the boundaries between the music school and the rest of the college are a bit more porous at LACs than at big universities (though there are probably exceptions).
Note also that my list excludes a lot of LACs that have pretty strong music departments, some of which may have excellent viola instructors and orchestras. It’s limited to those schools where music has a really substantial footprint at the college, big enough to rise to the conservatory or near-conservatory level. There are other threads on CC regarding LACs with strong music departments that will mention a number of other names.
At Lawrence non music majors can audition for an ensemble award that pays for private lessons with a conservatory teacher and lets them know that they will be accepted into an ensemble. The nice thing is that they don’t have to commit to it every term but can pick it back up throughout their time at Lawrence when they want to participate. It is also possible to study with a conservatory teacher without this scholarship and pay for lessons or audition for an ensemble without taking lessons, so it can be very flexible. Just as an aside, my S (a cellist) met the viola teacher from Lawrence at a festival and was very impressed with him.