<p>We are in So. Cal. and for the 2 years before my D applied to programs ('06 and’07) there were a number of kids who she had worked with in local productions who applied to and attended U of A’s MT program. I will say that for the most part, these were kids who did not apply to many, if any at all, of the bigger programs and did not apply to schools out of our general area. Some of them were very talented, but they were looking for schools in the western US. Of the 5 kids we knew of, I don’t believe any of them ended up graduating from the program. We know of 2 who transferred to other majors at UofA, and 2 who left the school completely. I don’t know what happened to the 5th but know she did not stay there. Recently, we don’t know anyone who has applied there, and like others here have pointed out, it doesn’t seem that any CC’rs have applied there. I just don’t hear much about the program anymore, and I wonder if their “reputation” has proceeded them and is indeed resulting in a diminished applicant pool. It is too bad that those of us on the west coast have so little to choose from anyway and then have to take this one off our lists. I agree with kksmom5 that while I don’t know much about the current program and while the training may be good, I can’t imagine taking the risk to attend knowing what their cut policy is!</p>
<p>takeitallin…you are right that there are so few programs out west. I am sure there are lots of kids from the west who apply to the BFA programs at Arizona. Some likely are not aware of these policies and some are OK with these policies. I have a niece in acting who just graduated a few days ago from UMichigan’s BFA program… She is from Alaska and when she made her original tentative college list, she wanted to run it by me, and had Arizona on the list, and I asked her if she knew it was a cut program and she didn’t know but as soon as she found out, she opted to cut it from the list. Some are comfortable with such policies and some aren’t. That’s why it is important to explore each school in depth to find what fits for oneself. (for the record, UMich has NO cut policy of any kind)</p>
<p>takeitallin - Like you we are from SoCal, but D never considered UofA because of the cuts. She worked on different shows with two very talented people who were cut from the program and went on to other programs with great success.</p>
<p>I have difficulty understanding given that two of the criterion for cutting a BFA student are “talent” and “professional potential”, how: </p>
<p>1) students are deemed not talented enough or as not having professional potential who just one year earlier when auditioning for admission were deemed as qualified in those areas</p>
<p>2) how so many of the cut students who were “not talented enough” and “didn’t show professional potential” were successful in gaining admissions to highly competitive BFA programs as transfer students and went on to professional careers</p>
<p>The third criteria of “trainability” is also baffling in light of many of those who were cut stating that they had very good grades in class and so what accounts for getting graded well but then being deemed “not trainable?” Wouldn’t their grades have matched such an evaluation?</p>
<p>You and I are of a like mind on this (see my post above where I described the stated audition assessment criteria to be specious). At the very least, UA’s approach creates an environment where students spend 2 years wondering if they have 1 foot out the door, looking over their shoulders wondering which of their classmates will be ranked higher and therefore force their departure regardless of the student’s progress, and not knowing their status until it is too late in the year to make plans to continue their education elsewhere.</p>
<p>Over and above the curious and apparent illogic of the re-audition process is that BA students are invited to audition and if successful will knock out BFA students even if the BFA student has no other “issue” concerning retention. If the BA student is deemed to be “desirable” under the audition assessment criteria, out goes the BFA student. The program is not expanded to accommodate a BA student of merit; an existing BFA student who was deemed to have merit is displaced by a student viewed as having greater relative merit. Like I said before, students as fungible products, let’s clean the shelves to get new stock in. What conceivable educational value and interest can that possibly serve.</p>
<p>I don’t want to make anyone defensive, but there is certainly some “nonsense” going around in this forum. As a current Senior (after this summer) MT major, I would like to address some of the things people have been discussing here.</p>
<p>First of all: Cuts–yes, they happen. Every student matriculating in the UofA BFA Acting or MT program is informed very clearly, up front, about the reasons for which they might be “cut” after freshman or sophomore year. </p>
<p>That is not to say that some people getting cut does not still come as a “surprise”–despite mid-year reviews and meetings with teachers throughout the year, some people simply do not understand that they may have attitude problems or, to put it bluntly, do not have what it takes talent-wise to succeed in a career in this competitive field at present. </p>
<p>There are, of course, some very talented and hard-working students who still get “cut”; in these instances, it is often a matter of the UofA honestly not being the right place for these students to grow as an artist, and if this is the case, it is truly better for these students to go elsewhere, where they will be appreciated in a better environment for what they need as individuals. Brian Stokes Mitchell, who came and taught a master class at our school recently, said it best: “Go where you are wanted.”</p>
<p>Another thing I feel I need to point out is that while I am sure not all BFA programs have a “cuts” system, most (if not all) of the “good ones” do… and many of them cut students up until the second semester of Junior year (examples of this are CSUFullerton and CCM… correct me if I am wrong in this assertion). I personally have a friend who got cut in the final round at CSUF, and now she is left wondering what to do with her life after being nearly finished with her college education. That being said, CSUF and CCM are considered to be two of the top BFA training programs in the nation. </p>
<p>Then there is the matter of schools that don’t “cut” anyone, but have faculty meetings in which they “strongly suggest” that certain students leave and seek out another field of specialization. They do not force anyone to leave the program, but tell them that they will not ever be cast in shows at the school, and will not be successful in the program. </p>
<p>Furthermore, many (I’m sure not all) of the schools that do not cut anyone are left with classes of 40+ students. Again, I have a personal friend who goes to BoCo, where they have much larger class sizes than we do here at the UofA, and while she loves many aspects of the program, she complains that she does not often get the individual attention she needs in her acting and voice classes.</p>
<p>Finally: It is very difficult to judge which schools have the “best” or “most competitive” programs in this field, as it becomes a question of, “How do you decide?” Which school has the most alumni on Broadway? Last time I checked, that was CCM… But that’s an INCREDIBLY narrow set of criteria for determining this question. How about, which school has produced the most working actors? This method of determining which school is “best” seems much more reasonable to me, but even here we run into difficulties. How do we determine what constitutes a “working actor”? Getting paid? Working in an Equity production? Working in film/television? Working as an actor enough to pay the bills consistently (rare in this business), or working continuously (rarer)? Should we determine who has the most “working actors” by sheer numbers, or by ratio/percentage of total students who graduate from the program?</p>
<p>In any case, if you or your son/daughter is considering coming to the UofA as a BFA Musical Theatre or Acting freshman, here are a few NON-nonsense matters you should consider in your decision:</p>
<p>Acting: One thing that the agents and casting directors who attend our showcase of talent have consistently stressed about our program is how good the acting training we get here is, as opposed to other MT programs (specific examples they have mentioned as producing dancer/singers who cannot really act–this is not coming from me, but from New York agents–include CMU, CCM, and NYU/Tisch). </p>
<p>The first half of our showcase consists of scenes and monologues performed by the mixed Acting and MT classes, and the auditors can never tell which students are MT majors versus Acting majors until the musical portion of the showcase. At the UofA, MT students get the exact same acting training as Acting students–a true rarity in this field. We also often have MT majors being cast as the leads in plays (including Shakespeare and other classical works), and Acting majors who can sing being cast as the leads in musicals. Everyone works together to put on the best shows possible, and the result is: everyone who graduates from the University of Arizona BFA Musical Theatre or Acting program has a solid foundation in Stanislavsky-based acting technique, acquired through intensive classes and put into practice in various productions throughout the school year. That being said…</p>
<p>Dance: While the University of Arizona has one of the top Dance programs in the nation (ranked nationally alongside Julliard), currently our BFA MT program does not put much emphasis on dance. There is no dance audition required to enter into the BFA program here, nor to continue on past “cuts”. We are required to take at least one dance class each semester, and have a minimum of 11 dance “credits” before we graduate. We take dance classes directly through the school of dance (as opposed to having our own branch of dance classes), and this has both upsides and downsides. </p>
<p>We do have some excellent dancers in the program here, but it is truly up to each individual to develop (or not develop) his or her own dance skills. If you work hard and apply yourself, you can vastly improve your dance skills in your time at the UofA… but the program will not force, or necessarily even really encourage, this development. If you are looking for a program that puts stronger emphasis on dance, look elsewhere (UMich, CMU, CCM, Tisch, etc.).</p>
<p>Singing: I would pit our voice/singing training against any in the nation. In our time here, we get both group and private voice lessons, during which emphasis is placed not only on technique, but on acting values in our singing as well. </p>
<p>Alumni Success: The UofA has many successful alumni, including RECENT alumni. A quick visit to the school website will tell you about a few of these, but certainly not all of them. We currently have alumni working in Broadway and off-Broadway productions, national tours, regional theatres, film, television and voice over work. Unfortunately, I do not have any current numbers or statistics regarding the UofA or other top schools in this category. Then again, “numbers” never tell the whole story, so perhaps it is irrelevant. </p>
<p>Conclusion: Any school or training program is really, truly what YOU make of it. I have just been very honest about the respective training I have received in the areas of Acting, Singing and Dancing in my time here as a BFA MT major. I acknowledge the potential “weak points” in the training that my school offers, as well as the potential pitfalls of other top programs around the country. </p>
<p>Wherever you decide to go to pursue your individual training for a career in this ridiculously competitive field, the important thing is that you are in a creative learning environment in which YOU feel safe and stimulated to grow. Trust me: I have a lot of friends in a lot of different (and respected) programs of this nature around the nation, and they ALL have a heap of complaints about their respective schools… but they all also feel that they have made the best choice for themselves. </p>
<p>In any program, YOU are the one who needs to be your own driving factor toward success. If you are afraid you wouldn’t be able to handle a program that institutes “cuts”, then fine–don’t attend the UofA (or CCM… or CSUF…). </p>
<p>But consider this: if you are afraid that one institution might tell you, “You can’t do this”, and that THAT is going to put a halt to your career and your dreams… maybe you should consider not entering into a field in which the unemployment rate often hovers around 90%.</p>
<p>Best of luck and happy to answer any questions! Hope this helped!</p>
<p>As you can see from my LENGTHY response… I feel very strongly about this. Some of the people posting on here must have some personal issues for which they blame the UofA BFA program, and I don’t think it is necessary for these people to take out all of their anger and frustration by making assertions that are disrespectful and UNTRUE about this excellent program. </p>
<p>Just as a preemptive caution: While I am calling attention to some of the flaws of this and other programs, I am NOT trying to imply that any of them are “bad” programs. As I said in my original post, each program comes with its own set of unique benefits and downsides. But all of these programs–CCM, CMU, CSUF, UMich, NYU/Tisch, BoCo, the UofA, etc.–are considered to be among the top BFA Musical Theatre programs in the nation, and are worthy of recognition and esteem for what they are.</p>
<p>The arbitrary cut system at CSUF is among the reasons D would not even consider it although we are in state and she knows several people in the program. It’s one thing to be cut because you are not meeting expectations, while it’s quite another to enter college knowing there is a good chance you will not be a member of the graduating class. I could be wrong but my understanding is that they take 80 and graduate 20. That’s the plan regardless of what 60 students do and demonstrate skill wise, they will be gone before graduation. That’s ridiculous! I don’t know why anyone would sign-up for such a program. By the way, she also refused to audition at CCM, although she believes it’s a great program with lots of talented students, all the talk of hostility among students and crazy cut-throat competition was extremely unappealing. Obviously, there is something to be said for being a survivor…congrats…but a more supportive environment would certainly be beneficial to some developing artists. Also, I seriously question whether CSUF is a top in the nation program. I doubt if many people are torn when deciding between CM, CCM, NYU, Boco, and CSUF.</p>
<p>loverleecait, </p>
<p>I appreciate all that you shared about your program as it is really helpful to hear from current students (though I also think it has been helpful to hear from those cut too). Speaking for myself only, I have NO doubts that you receive excellent training at U of A and that graduates go onto successful careers coming from your program. I honestly haven’t seen anyone question the quality of the training, the talent of the students, etc, some of which your posts discusses and defends. I never thought any of that was being questioned by any posts here on CC.</p>
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<p>As an educator, I understand if someone is not doing the work as there are standards in terms of assignments, effort, etc. In any subject, students are graded. Some fail. I have taught college and have had failing students. What I don’t agree with is a program cutting students who they feel don’t have the talent to succeed in a MT career. The college’s chance to evaluate their talent was when they were admitting these students in a highly competitive admissions process. I can’t imagine thinking a student has talent and one year later thinking they don’t have talent. But even so, a teacher can advise a student that their talent may make it hard to be successful in this field but it is up to the student once admitted and if doing the work, if they wish to continue (at most programs). They are there to earn a degree. If they don’t get a job in the field upon graduation, so be it. No college degree is the guarantee of a job or of success. On top of that, I don’t believe that ALL of the cut students don’t have the talent because how do you explain that some cut students have gone on to be admitted as transfer students at other BFA in MT programs, including highly competitive ones like CMU? </p>
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<p>If U of A is not the right place for these students to grow as an artist, the college (who had the pick of the litter), should not have accepted them due to poor fit. They should have found out all they could about the students before admitting them. If a student doesn’t think the school is a good fit, they can leave. The college should have figured out who was a good fit when they admitted their class. When they cut such a HIGH number of students, due to “poor fit,” it reflects upon the program as not having done their job at the point of acceptances.</p>
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<p>Well, I disagree with you here. You even bring up other “top” programs in your post and some of these do NOT cut…such as NYU/Tisch, Carnegie Mellon, and U of Michigan (and many other BFAs as well, but just using some schools that you named in your post, not to mention that these are often brought up in discussions of well-known programs).</p>
<p>I am delighted that you are having a great experience at U of A and again, I am sure they offer wonderful training in MT. I think the issues brought up here, however, are ones that prospective students should weigh before applying/attending so that they are well informed because the policies at U of A do differ from many other MT programs. Thank you again for sharing a student’s experience and point of view as you have added to the information here for others to weigh when considering this school.</p>
<p>soozievt,</p>
<p>I completely agree that prospective students should understand the potential pros and cons of any school that they are considering attending for the next 4 years of their young lives. And I am certainly aware that the program at the UofA, like any other program, has some “cons” that may be deal-breakers for some students. I just want these prospectives to be aware that there are many “pros” that make attending the UofA worth while for many talented and hard-working students aspiring to a career in the theatre. </p>
<p>As for my defense of the training/validity of the program, I was responding to the suggestion that at least one person had made that the UofA was “not competetive” with other top programs, or something along those lines. Naturally, as a current student who has been working hard for the past 3 years to earn my BFA (not to mention seeing the great success of those UofA alumni who graduated before me), I did not appreciate this implication.</p>
<p>As to the cuts issue, I have to once again be brutally honest in saying that the students who get cut who ARE hard-working and talented are BY FAR the exception, not the rule. And as to the school being able to ascertain everything about a student’s talent and work ethic based on the audition/application process alone, I must disagree with you that this is actually possible. I agree that the school should make every attempt to find out as much as they can about a student before admitting him or her… But the truth is, some people are “good auditioners” who then show themselves to have bad attitudes (or perhaps very limited talent that happened to shine in the 4 or so minutes of their audition) after the audition. And I have heard that while UMich stopped instituting official “cuts”, they are among the schools that merely “strongly suggests” that certain students leave the program and tells them that they will never be cast in school productions during the remainder of their time at UMich. If you ask me, giving a student a degree with no stage experience or credits on their resume (not to mention having essentially told them that you do not believe they can make it) is a cruel and underhanded alternative to the controversial practice of “cuts”.</p>
<p>I would throw in the mix that non-cut schools do not guarantee their students casting each semester in mainstage productions - they can’t as their numbers are too large and their seasons too small.</p>
<p>UofA “company members” are cast each and every semester.</p>
<p>Final point: talented students one year ago are still talented, but they may not be responsive to the training, making that talent a moot point (enough to get in the door, but not enough to wedge it open for three more years). In that case, another school would be a better fit.</p>
<p>As the MT Coordinator at CSUF, I can tell you that those students brought into the MT BFA (starts at the junior level) are rarely cut. The most recent (three years ago - a cut into the senior year) was made due to an inner ear imbalance that made pitch differentiation a spotty issue - sometimes right on, other times not even in the ballpark, with no way for the student to control the problem. Can a person graduate with a BFA in Musical Theatre if they can’t sing on pitch??? Otherwise, in my seven years there, no one was dismissed from the BFA once brought in. Some are placed on probation for a semester with the caveat that they must improve scores in that jury area (we jury in all three: dance, acting and voice) or be released. Some have left the program for national tours, then returned to try to readmit; and one of the two who have done that in the past seven years did not make the dance cut returning, so was not readmitted. The other did, and was brought into the class one year behind his initial placement (due to the one year hiatus). He made it into the national tour of In the Heights as Sonny and understudy for Usnavi upon graduation - one strong indicator of the level of training they are receiving here.</p>
<p>Students who do not pass their juries can continue as Liberal Arts BA Theatre students, or directing majors, or playwrights, or Dance or Theatre Ed students, or any other program that we offer. They aren’t left “out in the street” like garbage. Some MT students don’t make the MT BFA cut, but DO make the Acting BFA program. So while we do make cuts at CSUF, there are educational options available to the student who desires to stay and graduate.</p>
<p>Loverleecait,</p>
<p>I appreciate your perspective regarding your own program, but I felt the need to clear up what you stated as to what happens at UMich, as my daughter will be a junior BFA MT at UMich.</p>
<p>First, UMich never has had an “official” or “unofficial cut program” they also do not ask students to leave the program. I do not know where you heard this information, but it could not be further from the truth. The sophomore class just completed their evaluations, and the faculty is extremely supportive of the students and their talents and strengths. My daughter has never heard of a student graduating that had never been cast or told they would not be cast. Simply not true.
Again, I feel the information you are sharing regarding your own experiences at your own school is helpful, but at the same time, throwing out information regarding another program that you do not have first hand knowledge about is not helpful.</p>
<p>I just wanted to clear some stuff up for you regarding the two probation years at the University of Arizona. I am a current freshman BFA musical theatre major (1 of 13 MT freshmen) at the University of Arizona. If you are lucky enough to be accepted into the School of Theatre, Film and Television as a BFA student your freshman and sophomore years you are on “probation.” This means that at the end of your freshman and sophomore years you have the choice to re-audition into the program. THERE IS NO SET NUMBER FOR HOW MANY STUDENTS THEY WILL NOT ASK BACK!!! Also, cuts are not based on talent, they are based on the strict disciplinary guidelines they expect every student to follow. Some students are unfortunately cut due to failing to enroll in the mandatory number of general education classes, some are cut because they could not maintain the mandatory 3.0 grade point average, and some are cut because they have not been able to absorb what they were taught throughout the year (it is not like they don’t tell you what to expect…at the end of each semester you go through what is called “Jury” where the professors tell you what you need to focus on improving and what to do in order to stay in the program). The cuts are definitely real, no one tries to keep them a secret from you, but they also do not dangle them over your head. The cut process is to teach discipline, which is a main lesson here at the U of A because in the real business if you miss rehearsal you are just simply screwed and could be fired. Everything they do it to make you a better actor. </p>
<p>Do not base your decision to not attend the U of A simply because you are afraid to be cut. Take the challenge and run with it, let it teach you, and let it mold you into a great actor. I can tell you that yes I am absolutely terrified that I will not be asked back at the end of my freshman or sophomore year, but I am extremely happy that I have chosen this school. If you are willing to put your whole heart and soul into everything you do, the professors will see that you are willing to let them help teach and shape you as an actor and you will not be cut. The professors are there for you if you ever have a question about anything, they are not going to not help you.</p>
<p>I hope this helped some of you with your decisions about the university and the program. Good luck to everyone!</p>