Anything about the Jewish Theological Seminary-List College?

College Search & Selection
21

<p>List is a joint program with JTS and Columbia (there is also a joint program option with Barnard for women, details of the joint programs vary slightly). You get two degrees – one from JTS in a Judaic related field, one from Columbia School of General Studies in whatever field you choose. It requires over 150 credit hours to complete both of those degrees – way more than a typical bachelor’s degree. It is a very intense program and it is not unusual for students to take summer courses, or an extra semester to finish all the requirements. (the official line is that students can finish in 4 years, but its not easy.)</p>

<p>List does not require adherence to Conservative religious standards. As a practical matter, many students come from active Conservative backgrounds, which is why they go there, but there are people from all different Jewish backgrounds. Someone without a great background, but who wants to improve their Jewish knowledge would be an appropriate fit. </p>

<p>List is not a “seminary” program turning out Conservative clergy. It is an undergraduate program that includes a strong Judaic component which is taught at the Conservative seminary – but again, no level of observance is required of its students (in the dorms, i believe at least a certain level of “kosher” is required in the communal kitchens, but the students sharing the kitchen decide what that level will be).</p>

<p>I believe that at least some level of Hebrew knowledge is required – not going in, but that you would have to take at least some Hebrew while you are there. Even if you have to start at the basic level, I doubt you would be the only one.</p>

<p>It is an excellent program and I believe taken very seriously. Everyone I’ve known who has gone there has gone on to good things in a variety of fields. </p>

<p>It is certainly a very unique academic setting given the combination of JTS and Columbia. I would suggest that a visit would be an essential part of considering the school. I know for freshman applicants they offer excellent visiting programs in junior and senior years – days set aside where you can really go and get a flavor of the place, and for seniors stay overnight – I don’t know if they have anything similar for transfers. Even if not, try to arrange a visit.</p>

<p>Given the amount of requirements, one thing I think you should consider carefully is how your credits at your current school would transfer and where they would leave you in terms of how much longer it would likely take to complete List’s requirements especially since, as noted previously, it is hard enough as it is to try to finish List in 4 years.</p>

<p>I’ve known several people who went to List and all loved it and all worked really hard. It REALLY has to be what you want. If its unique offering is what you are looking for, it is wonderful.</p>

22

<p>“Your classmates may be starting at a whole different level in terms of understanding of and familiarity with the sources, the thinking, the philosophy, the language, the beliefs, etc. IOW, the “issue” isn’t the material – it’s the classmates and their base level”</p>

<p>I think I hear you. As someone who has been part of the C movement for 18 years, my sense is that, given the diversity of what is at issue, there will be some students starting at the bottom in every area - for example there will (sadly) be some students who dont know what halacha is when a prof mentions “the halacha of Pesach” </p>

<p>OTOH if you have to ask not “what is halacha” but “what is Pesach?” that would be something else. </p>

<p>I guess it would help, as you said, if OP could tell a little more about their level of knowledge and involvement, apart from formal schooling.</p>

23

<p>"I know it’s a seminary; and they do say that they have students coming in from secular schools. I blame my parents for my not having a background, not my own deficit. "</p>

<p>secular schools can mean a kid who went to public school k-12, did religious school till bar/bat mitzvah, did confirmation, was active in USY, etc. </p>

<p>And its not a matter of blame, but of where you would fit in best. </p>

<p>Where are you now? If you are not at a selective institution, it might be very hard to get in as a transfer. If you are at an Ivy, most of them have very actives hillels, jewish student communities, etc that might help more if you are returning to Judaism (a Baal Tshuva Masorti, as I like to say). As PG said, I’m not sure List is the best place for that, though I could understand why someone in that position and college age might think it would be.</p>

24

<p>“-- but again, no level of observance is required of its students (in the dorms, i believe at least a certain level of “kosher” is required in the communal kitchens, but the students sharing the kitchen decide what that level will be).”</p>

<p>My assumption when we visited, was that that discussion would be about details, leniencies, and/or following strictnesses to make it more comfortable for nominally orthodox students and visitors, but that it was taken for granted that there would be two sets of dishes, etc.</p>

25

<p>re kashrut in the dorms – when we visited (a few years ago) i was actually surprised at how broad a level of kashrut seemed to be permitted – for example, in my recollection, heckshers did not have to be required. since students of varying backgrounds could be sharing a kitchen, it could lead to some negotiating to make sure everyone would be comfortable with the communal standards (with possibly additional sets of dishes for individual comfort).</p>

<p>from what i’ve seen and known of students at List, less important than where you’ve come from, is where you want to be heading in terms of Judaic knowledge (not necessarily Judaic practice). But I suppose that at least some knowledge is necessary to know what it is you want to know better (does that make sense)? expanding on the Pesach analogy – it may not be for the child who doesn’t know enough to ask, but it may be for the “simple” child who knows enough to ask but doesn’t yet know enough to frame his questions fully, but wants to learn how to. as long as they don’t feel uncomfortable being with a lot of the “wise” child types who already know how to ask fully.</p>

26

<p>Batoven - I found your opening post confusing, so I know it’s likely I’m not answering your questions fully. I know 3 kids who are doing joint List/Columbia or /Barnard degrees. The Columbia-GS and Barnard part are 100% legit. None of the 3 I know came in as transfer students. As far as I know, none of the three are aiming for careers as clergy. </p>

<p>Where I come from, applying to the joint program is sometimes seen as a ‘back-door’ way to get into Columbia for kids with slightly lower application strength. Whether this is true or not kind of depends on what exactly people mean by <em>slightly</em>. Probably the avg SAT/GPA/EC-strength of joint program acceptees is somewhat lower than straight-up Columbia acceptees but I would guess the differenced is pretty small. Also, this kind of sniping between various sub-pops of Columbia about who’s smarter and who had it rougher in the applications race is a local specialty. Check out the many threads implying, for example, that Barnard matriculants are all there because they couldn’t have made it into Columbia. I believe there might be some animus between GS vs CC, SEAS vs. CC, and on and on. However, applying to the joint degree program is only a live option for someone who actually has the demonstrable interest and desire to also get the List degree. (That sounds like it describes you, so that’s a positive thing, right?) I think List is looking for a combination of academic, denominational and youth-leadership oriented strength. I’m certain that that does not mean you must be a USY leader, or that you must come from a Conservative-movement synagogue. There are many possible paths that would make someone a good candidate for List. </p>

<p>Your first step should probably be to inquire into their transfer policy.</p>

27

<p>“re kashrut in the dorms – when we visited (a few years ago) i was actually surprised at how broad a level of kashrut seemed to be permitted – for example, in my recollection, heckshers did not have to be required.”</p>

<p>we visited in August of '09, and my memory is now refreshed, yes, it was ingredient list vs hecksher that they gave as an example of what students would decide. Which I think gives a good idea of how broad it is, and how broad it isn’t. Not to be too snarky, but I mean if a dorm voted to use ingredient kashrut to insure no treif ingredient or meat/dairy mixtures, that would still make their kitchen more strictly kosher than the kitchens in the majority of Reform shuls in the US, right ;)</p>

28

<p>Also - I don’t know of any reason to believe that graduate schools will view a Columbia GS degree as a sham. What made you think that might be true?</p>

29

<p>"Where I come from, applying to the joint program is sometimes seen as a ‘back-door’ way to get into Columbia for kids with slightly lower application strength. Whether this is true or not kind of depends on what exactly people mean by <em>slightly</em>. "</p>

<p>Oy, and the absence of any public data I could find on List admissions, SATs, etc make this hard to verify.</p>

<p>List of course denies its easier. Some folks in the community think its definitely easier. I suspect you are much more right than they are. Again, my DD who was WLed at WUSTL, was rejected at List.</p>

30

<p>Sorry if my original question was confusing. Well, I like to think I know the basics fairly well (i.e. I would know what the “halacha of Pesach” means…and I’m glad to say I am going to a Hebrew class tonight), but because I’ve just recently started becoming more observant, I could see how admissions would think that I don’t know what I want and maybe even am just trying to get into Columbia. This is annoying to me too, because the fact that I’ve decided something last year, as opposed to fifth grade while being pushed by my parents, shouldn’t make my decision less valid. </p>

<p>In regards to taking Jewish studies at a secular university, that is what I will probably be doing if I don’t get in. But of course I’d prefer not to; it’s like picking University of Alabama over Sorbonne to study French (you should already know some French if you’re going to be going there, but you get my point)—it’s because I want to be able to be more observant and learn more in detail than I would at a secular university.</p>

<p>brooklynborndad: I am actually at a community college right now. I guess that would change things, wouldn’t it? I guess the only thing I could do would be to make my long streak of bad grades in high school, joining no clubs, and a sudden 4.0 in community college, look interesting. And schedule an interview.</p>

<p>Re: a sham—It’s just because the GS program sounds like it was made for working parents to take classes at night and isn’t at the same caliber as CC. That’s just me though.</p>

31

<p>“brooklynborndad: I am actually at a community college right now. I guess that would change things, wouldn’t it? I guess the only thing I could do would be to make my long streak of bad grades in high school, joining no clubs, and a sudden 4.0 in community college, look interesting. And schedule an interview”</p>

<p>as DD did not consider community colleges, and most of her friends who are going there are mainly interested in the guaranteed admission to Virginia publics, I really know nothing about the CC transfer to elite private route. 4.0 is great, and its terrific you turned your life around, but I don’t know if that will persuade the admissions folks at Columbia. </p>

<p>and yeah life is unfair. </p>

<p>What state do you live in? with your 4.0 at CC you may have a good chance at transfer to your state flagship, and assuming you dont actually live in Alabama, it may have a quite strong Jewish studies program.</p>

32

<p>

</p>

<p>just fyi (not necessarily to person who posted this quote, but for anyone reading about list)- my recollection is that the entire dorm doesn’t share a kitchen – i don’t recall how many students share one, but its a grouping of a few rooms’ worth.</p>

<p>to the OP – if you are starting on the path to increased observance and are eager to make the Judaic studies component an important part of your education, together with an environment that will foster increased observance, List could be very well suited for you – but again, I strongly urge visiting and meeting with people there – both so they can get to know you (their application pool is so small, I would assume this matters) and so you can make sure it is right for you.</p>

33

<p>I live in Virginia—and just like you mentioned, I am planning on transferring to William & Mary under guaranteed admissions (or UVA, which is the second choice). Actually, since transfers can’t apply to JTS until April anyway and I’m graduating after this fall, I will have already been at William & Mary for a semester, but I don’t know whether being at so many schools before applying will be a help or a hindrance (I mean, that will already be two and a half years’ worth of credits they’ll have to look at).</p>

34

<p>

</p>

<p>given the extensive requirements to obtain two degrees at List. make sure you know not just how much credit you’d get, but how much you would still need to meet all the various requirements you would have. (ie, its not just an issue of the number of credits you’d have, but what substantive requirements are left to fill and how long it would take you to do so.)</p>

35

<p>side note, I have heard W&M has a relatively weak hillel, despite having a fair number of jewish kids, though they may be turning that around. For Jewish community, and I guess Jewish studies, UVA would be the better choice. And with a 4.0 at CC, you should be able to do that (that path is one of the least heralded amazing things in US higher education, I think). </p>

<p>and, no, i have idea if being at CC and then a second school like W&M or UVA would help or hurt.</p>

36

<p>Good to know. UVA has a better philosophy department too, which is the other thing I want to do.</p>

<p>EDIT: And a Chabad House!</p>

37

<p>You may be interested in a blog called BeyondBT (can’t link to blogs here, but google it and you’ll find it. It’s written from an Orthodox ba’al teshuva perspective.</p>

38

<p>If Chabad interests you, are you sure you aren’t headed in an Orthodox direction?</p>

39

<p>It’s not that Chabad especially interests me, but I thought it was interesting that Charlottesville, VA would have one. I am somewhat interested in Orthodox except for a few specific things (that probably won’t change for a while), so I’m sticking with Conservative for now.
By the way, thanks for that blog link. I’ve been reading way too many Orthodox blogs lately, but I haven’t seen this one yet.</p>

1 Like
40

<p>I am creating a Conservative blog, but its not ready for primetime quite yet.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, look for Shefanetwork, its a place with interesting articles about Conserv/Masorti J.</p>

<p>I’ve seen, Beyond BT - while I like to see an O perspective, BBT was a bit over the top for my tastes. Maybe I dont remember it well.</p>