<p>I've been involved in several conversations lately about why our school doesn't offer more AP classes and would like feedback from CC on their importance as related to the admission process.</p>
<p>Our h.s. (graduating class size around 200) has an outstanding reputation and gets kids into some great east coast LACs, but rarely breaks into the Ivies or the top 10-12 on the USNews rankings--maybe the odd one or two every 3-4 years, but not with any consistency. We have had some exceptional candidates with very good board scores, ECs, etc. </p>
<p>Our school offers only 3 AP classes and two of those are offered on an alternating basis. There is a group that believes much of the problem is the lack of APs, but the school admin/board has the opinion that our highest honors classes are able to offer more rigorous instruction than the 'canned' program offered in an AP class. That may be true because, for example, the students who take AP tests in the sciences after having taken the second level of any given science class do quite well--4's and 5's--on the AP test. However, since the course doesn't offer the AP designation, some here think it is a disservice to our students. Some teachers here say they can have more flexiblity and can offer superior instruction and that by 'buying' the AP title, we are giving in to a system that is on its way out. </p>
<p>I'm not sure that the top-ten colleges agree with this philosophy and wondered if anybody here has information on how much value these particular schools place on the AP title. </p>
<p>One mom told me she called her son's first choice school (a top ten) and asked how he compared to those who were accepted. She was told most students had around 10 AP's whereas her son had only 1. Can that really be a deal-breaker?</p>
<p>it can't really be a deal-breaker if your school doesn't offer any, but it would probably help the student body if there were more offered. it's not really snob-appeal, more of a way to judge/gauge the students' abilities compared to everyone else who takes APs, since honors classes differ everywhere. your classes could be ten times harder than APs, but colleges don't know that because "Honors" isn't standardized - it could mean anything. AP is generally recognized as being tough.</p>
<p>In theory it shouldn't make a difference. Colleges look to see if the student has taken the most rigorous courses available. If that is "honors" designated courses, that should be acceptable (and should be clearly noted in the high school profile, which you might want to review). Also, most elite colleges give only minimal, if any, course credit for AP scores. Many private schools do not offer a large number of AP courses, and Ivy-placement does not seem to be an issue. Perhaps your school's administration should contact the admission reps from the elite colleges to learn more about your school.</p>
<p>I think your school should offer more APs but they probably have a logistical challenge in doing so because of the low number of students. This is probably why they're resisting it and trying to justify it.</p>
<p>I think 'fireflyscout's' idea of having your school's administration contact the Ivies so they can learn more about the school and the school can learn more about what they're seeking in the candidates is a good idea.</p>
<p>^ Logistics isn't really that good a reason. My school's graduating class is only ~250 and we have 17 AP courses. Admittedly we're a magnet school with a very academically-oriented student body, but still, size is no excuse for only THREE AP courses.</p>
<p>Re: the effect on college admissions, theoretically it doesn't matter; realistically, only the adcoms know.</p>
<p>I also second the idea of contacting Ivies. Advice from Ivy adcoms led to my school eliminating rank (externally, anyway).</p>
<p>Many of the top private schools are moving away from AP. The feeling is that they are doing a disservice to the students teaching to a test. Many of these schools place 20% percent plus at top 10 colleges. Could it be less acceptable at schools not as well known to them?</p>
<p>I think many private schools place a large percentage of their kids at top schools because those private schools have long been feeder schools for the Ivies and other top colleges and universities, and they know that the students have been well-prepared. Also, they know many of the students who attend private schools have the money to pay full freight tuition.</p>
<p>I believe fireflyscout had the right idea, and your school's GCs or college counselors should meet with reps from the top schools to see if they can pinpoint the problem.</p>
<p>It should be right on your school profile that's attached to your student's transcript that it does NOT offer many APs. That should be very clear to the colleges about the school's approach. Also it should appear in your GC's letter that these top kids took challenging courses.</p>
<p>I understand about the need for "name-brand" to justify the school's "rigorous" curriculum but on the long run, it's not worth it. Your school need to continue building relationships with the top colleges (as private schools have done- and of course the point about students being able to pay full tuition is an excellent one) to prove that it prepares students well without a AP curriculum, that the teachers are using their own methods and creativity to do so.</p>
<p>I have been through 5 APs in my high school and I will tell you that teachers and students can be quite miserable under this "canned" system because of the need for creativity. We're all stressed about learning the material for the exam. We did these APs for the sake of demonstrating our "challenging" courseload. We could have done better without being tied down to this system were the teachers allowed to teach what they wanted to teach. </p>
<p>I do think that colleges need to continue their evaluation of just how important APs are and just look at the whole profile of the school and its student body. Your school, I think, need to do a better job of marketing itself as a place that cultivates talented and prepared students who aren't tied down to memorization and 5-paragraph essays (consequences of AP courses).</p>
<p>What are the other characteristics of students at your school? (For example, how many national-level athletes are there? How many National Merit semifinalists?)</p>
<p>I think the AP class is much more valuable than most admissions officers say they are. This is in part because I go to a public high school with a magnet program that offers coursework beyond AP. For example a lot of kids take genetics and cell physiology and self study animals, plants, and ecology for the AP Bio exam. Most of those kids get 5s, but a lot of them get rejected form top 10 schools. But admissions officer's don't care that much about AP scores. So unless the admissions officer knows that the "honors" course at your high school are harder than AP, even if the kids consistently score 4s and 5s on the test, it doesn't hold as much weight as an AP course title.</p>
<p>That being said top 10 schools do evaluate applicants based on the coursework available at the school.</p>
<p>Are you concerned about the lack of AP courses only because of college admissions or are you concerned because there are not enough courses offered for the students to have challenging educational experiences?</p>
<p>My kids small town upstate NY hs has no (ZERO) AP classes. Instead, students can be in either A (advanced) or R (regular) classes. The hs also offers SUPA courses. These give students Syracuse U. credits. We paid several thousand dollars for our S to take SUPA classes and his college would not accept them. We did not pay for SUPA for our other two, needless to say. </p>
<p>I often believed (and still do) that the hs not offering AP courses was a big disadvantage. However, we have one kid at an Ivy and the other two at top LAC's (not top 5, but still highly respected schools). Our hs currently has students at MIT, Stanford, Cornell, Brown, Colgate, Johns Hopkins, Hamilton, Oberlin, Bucknell, Union, Skidmore. Graduates have gone to Harvard, Princeton, Williams, WUSL, CMU, etc.</p>
<p>Although, our local kids can still get into top schools, I think there would be a lot more if we had AP classes. Students w/o AP classes coming from very small town hs's can get in highly ranked colleges, but really have to prove themselves in other ways. This is where SAT's , SAT II's, and EC's help. </p>
<p>I've often said my kids have succeeded despite the hs and not because of. I do not mean disrespect for some of the great teachers they had. Others...not so much. Oh, btw, my kids hs has wonderful, plentiful and state of the art athletic fields.</p>
<p>Assuming the honors courses your school offers are as rigorous as AP courses, perhaps your school needs to do a better job of selling them as part of their school profile. There's at least one public high school in our county (Scarsdale) that recently eliminated APs. They've been anti-testing for a long time (they don't like NYS tests either) and have an excellent history of placing students in top schools so they can afford to do this. Most other high schools in the region don't dare. AP</a> info Here's info about what they did and why, including the letter they send to colleges.</p>
<p>It's my understanding that the HS GC will submit the high school profile along with transcripts, etc. to the various college admissions office and this will provide them with the information as to the number/types of classes offered at the high school.</p>
<p>Re: AP's in general--It was very nice when my kids started college with 18 credits under their belts based on their AP test scores. They're both using them towards their general ed. classes.</p>
<p>Students can always prepare for and take AP exams without taking an AP course- if the honors courses are as good as the school says the students should be able to cover any AP material easily on their own and do well on AP exams.</p>