AP History -is it necessary? Ap STATs instead

Applying to College
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<p>My D is a sophomore and likes math. She has taken alg 1, geo, and currently in alg 2 (all at honors level and an A student). She wants to take AP Stats next year along with honors pre/calc.</p>

<p>She also wants to take AP History because she thinks that if she doesn't she will look like a slacker to colleges. However she really has no interest in history and the teacher that teaches AP will be the same teacher she had last year for honors World History 1. She did manage to pull off a B+ in this class but did way to much work for that grade. </p>

<p>This history teacher is obsessed. He gives a minimum of an hour and a half of homework a night, impossible tests and many, many essays. He doesn’t realize that these kids have other equally hard classes that require attention. I don’t want D's entire junior year devoted to history like it was last year at the expense of her other classes. (He also made a point last year that his AP class is so much more work than his world history class). Junior year is an important year. My question is how will colleges look at this? Will taking honors US History instead of AP History look bad? My hope is that colletes will see that she has other interest, hence the AP Stats. All of her other classes will be honors and challenging. She is thinking about selective colleges so needs to be competetive. Do you think this would hurt admission chances? Oh and this year she has an A+ in honors World History 2 (different teacher-more reasonable load)!</p>

<p>She plans on taking 4 AP classes senior year (Math BC, English, language, chem or physics).</p>

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<p>APUSH (Us History) or Euro? I see you mentioned Honors US but just wanted to make sure. :)</p>

<p>One and a half hours minimum per night is not unreasonable at all, and working more than that (considerably more) every night and still getting a B is not unreasonable for an AP class. Giving an hour and a half a night and extremely difficult tests are not at all overload. There should be A LOT of essays geared towards the subject and subject exam. My current APUSH teacher, who also taught me regular (for a prep school, so read honours at least for a public) Euro last year, told us that his APUSH would be three times the workload. He was correct. And AP Euro (another teacher) is much, much harder. </p>

<p>She does not "need" that AP class with her schedule. Some of the more competitive colleges will look a bit down on her not taking it when it is offered, but her schedule is very competitive already (her senior year schedule), although it is not WHOA competitive.</p>

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<p>Technically, colleges do want to see the applicant taking the most rigorous course load ...</p>

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<p>First of all I agree with Carpe Aeternum about the workload. I don't mean to sound condescending, but you really need to get more of an idea of the typical AP workload, though I understand "typical" may be different at your school.<br>
I don't know much about non-history AP courses, but from what I've heard, AP math courses seem to be less HW loaded....usually only a bit more than an honors courses' homework, yet tests and the actual information are harder. AP Science courses also don't usually require a lot more homework than honors do, but are still harder. AP English courses, however, usually require MANY more, well written, essays than do honors courses (this also may be different b/c the Lang teacher @ my school is HARDCORE; definitely THE most respected and best teacher in the district). Finally, AP History's tend to be a LOT of work, simply because of the vast amount of information that needs to be known. Expect plenty of reading every night and many essays. </p>

<p>For World and APUSH I usually got/get b/w 5-20 pages a night to read, and about 1-2 essays a week.
I only take English Honors right now, but my teacher is crazy. This weeks schedule was: -Essay due Monday, -Essay due Tues, -Grapes of Wrath due Thurs (600 p book, 2 weeks to read), -Did you Read It? Quiz Thursday, -20 Act I Macbeth Questions due Wed, -40 Vocab Words due Fri, -Vocab Test Fri, -Grapes of Wrath Thesis and Works Cited due next Mon, -Grapes of Wrath Research Paper outline due Tues, -Grapes of Wrath Rough Draft (3pg) due Thurs.
Yes, she IS insane.
So I guess I'm ready for AP Lang, but you'd better get your daugter prepared, assuming that her Lang teacher is going to be even half as difficult as mine will be. (I'm not trying to be ignorant. She is retiring after next year and has gotten 40+ tutoring requests. Every student asked that has taken her class has said that she prepared them so much for college that they are now skating though classes their classmates are dying in. And this is while she is known for blatantly telling students that they are horrible writers (during the first week of school), giving exhorbitant amounts of work, and taking off points for being absent from class. I conclude she must be a great teacher, if people still like her despite this.)</p>

<p>Anyways, now that the HW is out of the way, and I have ranted enough, I completely disagree with kyledavis80. Colleges want to see the applicant taking the most rigorous course load in what INTERESTS them. You said that your daughter likes math, so I'm assuming that she is what I'd characterize as a more "math/science" person than a "humanities" person. (I reccommend physics....more math oriented). If colleges see that all or nearly all of her extracurriculars are math/science oriented, that she shows passion in those areas, etc., and she additionally gets lower grades than usual in history courses (and/or english, based on my generalization, but not necessarily true), they will DEFINITELY be able to tell that she is not intersted in history and only took an AP course to pad her application. This might then make them question her other course/extracurricular choices and ask themselves if she took them out of passion or out of hope to make herself look good. Don't fake liking something, its transparent, and colleges will usually be able to see right through it. Your daughter won't enjoy the class, which will make the work seem a lot more daunting than Stats, which she will like. </p>

<p>hope my advice helps.</p>

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<p>Your daughter sounds exactly like me. I get all A's in math, but absolutely hate every history class there is.</p>

<p>I've gotten straight B's in AP history and AP LA classes, but I don't see a reason to fret. Sure, it would be nice to have a 4.8 instead of a 4.6, but it's not necessary.</p>

<p>I'd say it depends on how much homework you actually have to turn in--I know I can just not read the book, and still get B in my AP history classes, but I'm not sure whether or not your daughter's are the same case. If it really is 1.5 hours of homework that she has to turn in <em>every day</em>, that's simply absurd.</p>

<p>I think she should definitely take honors if AP is as rigorous as you make it out to be. This is because doing 90 minutes of HW a night will decrease time for other homework in classes she finds more important and likes more. You don't want the grades of the classes that are related to what she wants to major in to drop--that would look much, much worse than taking Honors instead of AP History.</p>

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<p>Alamode, great post, but I disagree with one point (keeping it relevant to the OP). My college choices, which are good for their area (religous, conservative) but because of that area not in the usual top lists, want to see the most rigorous courseload in every area. Perhaps the OP has some colleges in mind she can ask about, but for the schools I am interested in, even an English major is expected to be in the most difficult or at least honours maths. I expect that the top overall schools will want to see toughness for all subjects. </p>

<p>In addition to the essay and reading in AP, expect an AP History class to have a lot of dates for her to memorize, to be used as a frame of reference on the exam. In this respect, between 50-100 is not bad per test. I know the freshman at my school (freshman history is world, non-honours, non-AP), students are expected to know every date mentioned in every reading for every reading quiz. In my APUSH, we simply know about 70 every test, lately less.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry but I guess I didn't make myself clear. </p>

<p>When I said that this teacher gives an hour and a half minimum homework per night, that was for last year's freshman honors World History class. The amount of work that she had was unbelievable but she rose to the occassion. Many packets to read, essays to write and all homework was graded. Many, many nights of 3 hours of history homework. I can't imagine how much more work there would be at the AP level with this teacher. </p>

<p>I just don't see the sense in it. I would say "take the class" if she were interested in the material but I feel that she just wants to take it because she feels like she should. Junior year is an important year and wouldn't it be better to at least take challenging courses in subjects that interest you? </p>

<p>Other than not taking the AP US History her workload will be the most challenging in her high school. I'm hoping that the AP Statistics would make up for the appearance of "not challenging" to the utmost! How do colleges look at the AP Stats course, in terms of challenging oneself. Her senior year will be all AP's (English, Spanish Language, a Science course and Calculus BC). She is also a musician so may add AP Music Theory as an independent class.</p>

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<p>Thank you for the clarification.</p>

<p>My freshman history load was an hour a night when I did not have a reading quiz nor anything else the next day. Sompohmore year I had a different teacher; 1.5-2 hours the night before a quiz. Both of those were non-honours/ non-AP. Junior year I have the same teacher as sophomore year, and am taking APUSH. To have the same grade in APUSH I had in my teacher's regular class sophomore year, I would have to put in about four hours a night, literally (to get a 99%). If I had taken AP Euro with my freshmen year teacher, I could have put in five hours a night and not quite gotten up to the 96% I had in his freshman year class. Students in any regular class would be expected to take a regular-length test and a five-paragraph essay in under an hour. </p>

<p>Keeping in mind that that is how challenging it can be, you seem to have solid reasoning behind your leaning towards keeping her out of APUSH.</p>

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<p>I don't understand this... My freshman AP social studies class required maybe fifteen minutes of homework a night on average. I got an A in the class, and though not everyone else in the class got a good grade (because they didn't read the book), <em>everyone</em> got a 5 or 4 on the AP test.</p>

<p>All this extra work seems pointless...</p>

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<p>Thanks for the complement Carpe Aeternum, but I stand by my post in all aspects. haha. I just think that though in most cases it might be "Better to get an B in an AP course than an A in an honors course," I dont know if this would be the same. I'm not an expert, of course, but if the OP's daughter doesn't do well in APUSH, it may become, through EC's and essays, obvious that the course was simply taken to "look good." However, I can't say that colleges should penalize her for this, b/c she was just doing what is usually reccomended, "take the hardest courses you can." Sometimes quoters leave of the "...while still being successful in them," part. ;)</p>

<p>Reasons why the OP's D should take APUSH:
1) It looks good on applications....
Reasons why the OP's D should not take APUSh:
1) Judging from postings, she wouldn't be able to handle the workload
2) She is not interested in it, which may contribute to lower grades
3) APUSH, or any history, can be BRUTAL and even TORTURING if you are not interested even the slightest in history. It just makes the information seem overwhelming.
4) It seems that unhappiness/unhandle-able workload may hurt the grades in her other, challenging, courses. </p>

<p>I don't think taking 1 honors course will be seen as "slacking off."</p>

<p>I understand that it was Honors and not AP that the teacher gave 1.5 hours of HW in. And what I have to say is that I NEVER understood the "I get ____ hours of hw a night with this class/teacher." Never made sense to me. Because with AP courses, it is simply not like that, at least in my school. Most teachers I know of in my school take a "Do the HW if you want to do well" approach. Sleep in class everyday for all they care...it's your own fault if you don't do well, and if you do, good for you! Do your Stats HW in class, fine, as long as you don't disrupt the class, and participate enough to be reasonable (even if halfheartedly), whatever! We get reading every night, but how do you check reading? No, we don't get pop quizes every day, it's checked with a test. A unit tests. I got behind in reading this week b/c of English. So now I have to read about 75 pages to catch up. (really looking forward to this weekend). The amount of time it takes to do HW COMPLETELY depends on the student, in a history AP. Some kids can just pay att. in class, skim the text, and do well. I am not like that. I HAVE to outline the text in order to remember it. This adds considerably to my workload.<br>
The teaching method, of course, is probably different in your school or with your teacher. This, I cannot account for, and niether can anyone else. I just checked my syllabus and for APUSH, the first two weeks of school we read a total of 102 pages, had 2 out of class essays, 1 in class essay, 2 vocab banks, and 1 MC bank. On average, I'd say we get about 50 pages to read a week, 1-2 essays a week (usually 1 in class, 1 out of), A document analysis every other day (this is the only work that is checked), 1 Vocab bank a week (40-100 words), 1 MC bank every two weeks (20-40 questions).<br>
AP work is DRASTICALLY different in every school, but I still feel that History, b/c of the reading, is the most in terms of workload, not really difficulty though. </p>

<p>Overally, I say, DON'T TAKE IT! Definitely take AP Music Theory instead.
may I ask what grade she is in?</p>

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<p>iin77. I completely understand it.<br>
You're teacher was simply not very demanding in terms of work. 99% of APUSH, or any AP history, HW is reading. reading reading reading. It all depends on you're reading. You were probably one of those people I talked about as being able to "kids can just pay att. in class, skim the text, and do well." As I said, this is not me, I have to outline, read slowly, etc. to understand and memorize things. I'm extremely jealous of my younger brother who has a photographic memory. IDK about the OP's D. </p>

<p>I'm not sure I believe that everyone in your entire class got a 4/5 though. Everyone in your class must be very responsible, teach-yourself, people and good essay writers, as with the time you said you spent on hw, it doesn't seem like you got many essays.....</p>

<p>um another questions.....I thought in you're other post you implied never getting B's?</p>

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<p>Well, that teacher was the best I ever had, but nonetheless, I think it proves that the enormous workload given by the teacher may not necessarily benefit her any more than a lesser amount of work with a different teacher.</p>

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<p>My daughter is a sophomore and is one of those people that needs to read, outline, go over notes, etc. She wants to do well so maybe she puts in extra time than is really necessary, I don't know but I don't see the point of all this work, especially with the heavy courseload she will be carrying. </p>

<p>And yes, I think that the AP US History will cause her other grades to suffer. Is it worth it?</p>

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<p>How does the teacher have time to give many essays and tests as well as MANY MORE to his ap class? I can't imagine it is too much more work because the more work the students do, the more work the teacher must do.</p>

<p>A bit more on topic, as long as the student has a full schedule that is clearly challenging, no adcom is going to read their transcript and think "HEY! Wheres the APUSH!@?! arhgisdhfg NO APUSH! <em>writes REJECTION on app</em>"</p>

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<p>I did probably 15-45 minutes of hw a night in AP US and got an A for the year, and a 4 on the AP. I really didn't like the essays last year, so I blame that on my score.</p>

<p>This year I have about a 96 average in US Gov, and I just read the chapter the night before the tests, and pay attention and interact in class.</p>

<p>It's not necessary to do three hours of homework a night, or 90 minutes for that matter. Some nights, for example, when writing essays, it is reasonable to spend a few hours. But for every night, that's simply ridiculous.</p>

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<p>Based on my D's experience, I say, don't take AP US History if history isn't your thing and you will already be taking lots of AP courses. Our HS offers tons of AP courses, and D has maxxed out on the AP sciences, math, and english, as well as AP Psychology and AP Econ Micro/Macro. (She'll get 50+hours credit at 3 of her college choices.) Give yourself a realistic break!</p>

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<p>If she can, AP Econ or AP Gov would probably be much easier classes (along the lines of AP Stats in difficulty). 3hrs/night of homework for one class is excessive (especially for one that only counts for one college class at most schools. Tell your daughter to take what she wants to take (although encourage her to push herself - just not to the brink of insanity like AP US would probably do).</p>

<p>Also, what kind of schools is your daughter looking at?</p>

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<p>My D has not taken any AP courses yet because her HS doesn't allow grade 9 or 10 students to take any AP's. She has taken the hardest possible courses available to her at this point. She is a straight A student however her history class last year caused her to end up with a few B+'s due to her obsession with doing well in history (and all the work that it entailed). There is just so much time in one day! My fear is if she takes AP US HIstory next year she will not do as well in her other classes because it will be the same teacher as last year. I'm sure you don't believe me but he is really out of control and obsessed with the amount of work he gives. Last year there was a graded essay every night (and this was for grade 9, freshman honors). And he didn't want you to just answer the essay question, he had all sorts of requirements for what he expected. </p>

<p>First AP available at her HS is grade 11, (AP US History or AP Stats). Most of the kids who take the AP Stats take it in senior year instead of AP Calculus. She plans on taking AP Calculus BC senior year. Her plan for senior year is 4 AP's which I mentioned in an above post. </p>

<p>She wants to take the AP History because she thinks that it will look better on her transcript, period. Doesn't care about the work. I say take what interest you??? I think that she already is pushing herself too hard.</p>

<p>She's hoping for an Ivy or top tier liberal arts school.</p>

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<p>still think she shouldnt take APUSH and should take Music Theory</p>

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<p>I would advise her not to take the course if she's not interested in it, and if her other grades would suffer. My d dropped down from honors to standard math because she'd have to work so much harder in honors that, even though she could do the work, her other grades would suffer. She took honors & AP in those subjects that mattered to her, and not in others. And as she said, "If a school won't take me because I didn't take AP Calculus, then that's not a place I'd want to be anyway."</p>

<p>As long as she's not "slacking off" and just saying that she doesn't want to take it because she wants easier classes, let her decide what she can live with. We're all so concerned about the 4 years of college - let's not forget that they have to live through, and hopefully thrive through, 4 years of high school. There's more to high school than getting into any particular college.</p>

<p>When we visited Vassar, I asked the admissions rep who gave the info session whether it was necessary to take 5 AP classes if all were offered to a senior. His response, without missing a beat was, "Oh, God, no! We want these kids to have a life!"</p>