AP Physics and Calculus for a Government Concentration

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

My daughter is a Junior who has completed 5 APs in her freshman and sophomore years. This year she is taking 5 more APs that mostly represent humanities. Next year she is planning to take another 7-8 APs. She is not a fan of math and science and has put most of her energy into politics. She intends to apply SCEA next year.

Her high school offers AP Physics (no Honors Physics) and AP Calculus. One of the great joys of her life has been the glee that she doesn’t have to take these classes. However, I see that Physics is listed as a suggested core science on Harvard’s recommended HS coursework and I have seen a few debates on needing AP Calculus (if offered at your HS) as well.

Is there a reason for non-STEM majors to take these? Are all Harvard students required to take Calculus and Physics once admitted? Or can the government students pursue other interests? Before I recommend to my daughter to rethink her senior plan with courses she feels she will struggle with (Aka hate), I’d like to learn more.

Can’t you argue that a student checks the box of most rigorous course load if the student has the highest UW and W GPA out of 420 in her graduating class? Her argument has been, “Aren’t 18 AP classes enough to show rigor??”

Btw she intends to take AP Environmental Science, AP Stats, AP Micro/Macro Economics and a few others that would more than fulfill 4 years of math and science. She’s taken AP Bio and is taking AP Chem.

Thanks

2

Here’s the thing - 95% of applicants will get rejected. I question applicants who don’t try to put forward the strongest application possible.

95% of the freshman class will have had calculus in HS. It does not have to be AP, but if the HS offers a non-AP version, she should consider it.
https://features.thecrimson.com/2017/freshman-survey/academics/

Harvard recommends 4 years of science including a year of bio/chem/physics. These don’t all have to be honors or AP; if available, regular physics is an option. That said, I assume we are talking AP Physics 1 and not AP Physics C since this is a first physics course. AP Physics 1 as a class is not bad (depending on the teacher) and the math is not high level. The AP exam sucks, and the score distribution reflects it. However, unless required by the school, she does not need to take the AP exam (not that it would count for anything at Harvard if she were lucky enough to be admitted).
https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/preparing-college/choosing-courses

Now there are valid reasons for not following the colleges “recommendations,” but let me give you my thoughts on what is (and what is not) an acceptable reason:

Valid reasons include :
• Applicant is an international student following a curriculum that does not align with the American standard. (e.g. UK)
• Schedule conflicts preclude the student from achieving the recommendations (in which case, the GC should say so in the GC rec)

Valid reasons do not include:
• The applicant chooses to double up on one core subject at the expense of another core subject
• The applicant does not like a certain subject
• The teacher of a certain subject sucks.

Again, applicants can, and do, get admitted without the “recommended” preparation.

No, but there are math and science gen ed requirements which must be fulfilled,

Without seeing the full schedule, this seems like overkill. It’s not an arms race where the one with the most AP wins. This is what Stanford says:

https://admission.stanford.edu/apply/selection/prepare.html

Additionally, she (and you) needs to be aware of the hidden course in the Fall: College applications and Essays. Students always underestimate the time involved with these.

I would assume the schedule counts as “most demanding” but there is no “arguing” to be had. The GC makes that determination. You D can certainly ask if her schedule would be rated as such. Also note that Harvard conducts a holistic evaluation: rigor, while important, is just one part of the application.

3

I would take regular Physics. Obviously she has “enough” APs.

4

I would take this in senior year if it’s just AP Physics 1. It does not require a lot of math. It’s a very challenging course (lowest % of 5s) because it is abstract, but once you get the idea, it’s fairly easy. If it’s Physics 1 and Physics 2 combined, I would reconsider because that’s too much for a person already taking 7-8 APs and needing time to write application essays.

5

Sage advice. I’ll see what’s behind all these APs. She’s confident all A’s will keep her top of her class at the end of her junior year. That should help with the GPA/Class Rank portion of the application.

But what’s behind all the APs in her senior year? I never really gave it much thought. Maybe she thinks it’s an arms race like you said. She should take the harder classes, but fewer senior APs to give her more time to deal with her weakness. (Frankly I think it’s fear more than fact.) That’s the more strategic course of action. (Nice pun huh?)

Ironically I’m an engineer. Physics and calculus are my strengths. Now if I could get her to let me help her! Thanks for the advice.

6

I don’t think being #1 in her class means much. Many schools don’t rank. #1 at her school may be #50 at other schools. Also what were scores on those AP tests and what were they? What are her EC’s?

7

So far her APs are 5,5,4,4,3. She really learned from the 3, the only one she took freshman year (Human Geo). I don’t think that will happen again. I’m confident we will see 5s and 4s on the APs she is taking this year. 34 ACT and will take again in April as a required activity for HS juniors. Taking Lit/Math I Subject tests in December. Has 700/640 on different tests but wants to bring those up.

ECs
She’s very involved in politics. She’s the Opposition Research Campaign Manager for an Alabama State Senate candidate in the 2018 midterms. She’s also a major campaign contributor for an Alabama State House candidate. (She refers to herself as Don Quixote with a blue lance attacking the red windmills.) She is editor in chief and founder of a political journal for her HS that covers the effects of legislation, such as minority access to healthcare, that effect the cancer community. (At least 12 articles written and several more edited.) She has been in Girl Scouts of America for 10 years and has a Girl Scout Bronze, Silver, and Gold Award (just waiting for the ceremony). Sits on Girl Scouts National Council as a representative for local and national issues that effect girls and women in her community. Was a campaign volunteer on the Doug Jones senate run in 2017. She is seeking an internship with one of her senators for next summer. She is also going to start a women’s organization in Bosnia (where her mother is from) that empowers women and provides them resources to succeed. Something that is really needed there. To that end, she will be volunteering for a local women’s organization this winter to seek guidance and funding for her venture next summer.

Are these the types of ECs that will get her consideration? She doesn’t have any national awards (unless Girl Scouts counts), but she has a real passion for politics. Should she be targeting different experiences or ECs while she still has time?

8

Your daughter’s ECs are great and I wouldn’t worry about that piece.

To your original question, competitive schools want to see kids taking the most rigorous curriculum available to them. Some of your daughter’s APs are some of the very easiest and IMO, were unnecessary. Missing calc and physics is going to be a negative. I agree with everything posted by @skieurope. Bottom line, it’s a disadvantage.

I would consider taking AP physics instead of AP environmental science and AP calc instead of stats. Or, even honors or regular physics/calc.

I will also echo that overloading AP courses senior year is risky because of all the work that will need to go into the college application process.

9

The other thing that I will add is that colleges, and Harvard is an example, want to see the honors/AP classes across disciplines.It’s great that D is interested in politics, but Harvard does not expect students to specialize in HS.

I would also caution her if she is doing course selection solely with an eye of maintaining rank. In a class of 420, being #2 or #5 instead of #1 is not the reason she will be rejected, if she is.

10

The AP scores of 3 and 4 will not help at Harvard. The 5’s may put you into a higher level class. My daughter took Human Geography freshman and got a 5 and it would most likely worthless at Harvard. AP’s are more helpful at state schools for credit but I’m not sure all those AP’s as other have pointed out may be beneficial.

11

I have questioned the actual value of calculus in the past, and I still do, but the fact remains that calculus and the methods of thinking it represents are central to a lot of data science. And data science is central to all sorts of social-science fields, most certainly including government/political science. Finally, as a long-time observer of government offices and of groups that deal with them, I can tell you that one important way young people make a place for themselves at the table is by having sophisticated and reliable math and statistics skills.

In other words, your prospective government major really ought to make friends with calculus.

Also – In my kids’ school, the GC would never have characterized a student as having taken the most challenging curriculum available if the student hadn’t taken at least one, and preferably both, of AP Calculus and AP Physics.

12

The GC may not give the “most demanding” schedule if she takes AP stats instead od AP calculus. I think it well known stats is pretty easier. Just my opinion but a B in calculus looks better than an A in stats.

13

Be aware that political science / government majors commonly have to take a statistics or quantitative methods course. While such courses typically do not require calculus, some social science students may choose to take more advanced statistics courses that do have a calculus prerequisite. Political scientists with a stronger knowledge of statistics may be at an advantage in analyzing polls and elections.

14

She does not need more than4 APs senior year, even for Havard. 5 if he worries it’ll look bad compared to junior year. But that’s a maximum
She WOULD need to take regular physics (or AP physics 1) and regular calculus. For a future government major, she’s need AP lit, AP foreign language (or level 4), AP us/comp gov and/or AP econ and/or AP history.

15

Which AP calculus?

If AB, then it is slower paced than calculus in college, so a student who has done well on the +1 math track in high school should not find it excessively difficult.

16

Human Geography for AP credit is, and always has been, worthless for Harvard, as they do not give AP credit. Any discussion of AP credit, though, is pointless since it will be eliminated for those students entering starting in 2020, although individual departments can continue to give course waivers based on exam scores.

AP courses on the other hand are important for course rigor, to an extent. So the 7-8 next year,as I said before, is too much of a good thing, as the is no course rigor rating of super-duper demanding.

Same at Harvard,although we’re getting ahead of ourselves.

Ditto. Although many gov concentrators (as poli sci majors are termed in Harvard-speak) opt for the calc-based stat class which, as @ucbalumnus correctly points out, may prove more useful in the long run.

17

Excellent insight. Thank you everyone for your input. This is what makes CC such a great source of information for planning. I talked with my daughter last night and she will shuffle her classes around to include AP Physics and AP Calculus AB in her senior year. I’m going to break out my books to get a head start so I can help her next year. I love these subjects, but it has been almost 25 years!

Maybe this is a topic for a different section however to my point about the value in CC…

Some months back, maybe 6-10, we were contacted by a popular college prep company who started offering a concierge service to walk the family through the full planning and application process. We spoke with the founder and president of the company at length. After an hour and a half Q&A (entire family listening in on the conversation), we all realized that I know more about the process than he does. He was making mistakes about merit aid at top universities, overstating and oversimplifying accessibility to the Ivies, and on top of that he wanted $7,500 for the service!

I am equipped with knowledge, people’s experiences and sage advice from the contributors at CC. Everything you need to make an informed, smart decision as a family is right here. Just be curious, ask questions and dig, dig, dig!

Have a great day!

18

It doesn’t have to be Calculus AB, it could be regular calculus if it’s offered.
Be careful, AP Physics should be AP Physics 1 (which can be taken by juniors and only requires Algebra2 mastery/some precalculus) NOT AP Physics C (which is harcore). Honors Physics, if offered, is perfectly acceptable too. The idea is to show she’s not afraid of the subject even if she’s a future government major. She has that intellectual confidence and curiosity, she can handle applied algebra - that’s all top colleges need.
She should NOT plan tons and tons of AP’s though, and most should be in Humanities/Social Science.
Perhaps she can take EITHER Physics or Calculus at AP level + the other one at Honors level, then add relevant Humanities/Social Science APs.
Finally, it’s perfectly fine to have one “fun”, unweighted class senior year. I think Culinary Arts is very useful, but Home Economics, Financial Literacy, Shop, Plumbing, Current Events… can all work.

19

She will also need time to prep for the SAT or ACT if she isn’t one and done in 11th grade. While the fall administrations are early in the school year…they are at the same time as preparing EA applications to be sent…and getting essays completed.

20

Plenty of the competition will have the right academic rounding.
Don’t worry about later AP credit somewhere. Worry about admissions, first.
Try to get a good read on what H looks for, from what they say on the web site and other direct info.

And recognize the value in EC rounding, as well. You told us all political or advocacy activities.