AP recommends students take fewer AP classes

Parents Forum
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I saw these tweets by the head of the AP program, Trevor Packer. (You might know him as the guy who tweets statistics about each of the AP tests and their score breakdowns each year.)

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I thought it was very interesting that he emphasized that College Board recommends students only take 1-2 AP classes each of their last three years in high school, for a total max of 3-6 classes. I am pretty unhappy about the disconnect between what they recommend (and what they say their data shows is best for students), and what college admissions officers seem to expect.

Just this evening, I saw a thread where a parent mentioned her child would have 5 AP classes, and the response from a poster was, “Is that all your school offered or is it just all she took?“ I understand that if that is how admissions officers are judging/comparing students it matters. But I don’t like the situation.

What do you think? Will there be a shift in what admissions officers think about excessive AP classes? Will there continue to be a push toward more students taking eight or 12 or more AP classes in high school (like some of the posters, we see here)?

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I don’t think that it’s the AO’s who need to shift the mindsets, since I’m not aware of any who are recommending 12+

Here is what MIT says:

Let me state clearly: we do not admit students solely because of their AP courses/scores. There is no minimum or recommended number of AP courses. AP scores are not part of an admission formula.

This is what Stanford has said:

We want to be clear that this is not a case of “whoever has the most APs wins.” Instead, we look for thoughtful, eager and highly engaged students who will make a difference at Stanford and in the world beyond. We expect that these students have taken high school course loads of reasonable and appropriate challenge in the context of their schools.

Many schools limit the number of AP’s that can be taken in a given year and / or limit most to juniors and seniors.

If anyone needs a shift in mindset, it’s the students themselves who are not only maxing out their school’s offerings, but are also thinking that self studying additional ones will benefit their application and the schools who apply a formula to determining the course rigor rating.

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But some school districts are apparently listening. My D’s school only allows 3 AP course per year, starting junior year, so also in the 3-6 max range.

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I am glad to see that! The impression I have definitely gotten on CC is that you should take as many AP classes as your school offers/allows. If you are taking fewer than the max amount allowed at your school, it will hurt you when applying to selective schools.

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How many APs students take depends on their school but also their state. For example, let’s look at the stats of the accepted students this year at UGA:

UGA Calculated Grade Point Average mid-range/average : 4.06 – 4.33, with a 4.19 average

AP/IB/Dual Enrollment course mid-range/average: 8-13 courses, average of 10+

So only a quarter (or less) of accepted students have taken less than 8 AP/IB/DE classes.

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This is consistently the impression I’ve gotten. Which makes for ridiculous workloads at magnet programs.In our case, our kids felt not challenged through middle school at traditional school (which in itself is a disservice) so they were drawn to magnet program. Our magnet program has required classes including several STEM AP but because there are so many APs offered, they compete amongst themselves to take as many as possible. CC has also given me impression that for core English, History, Math, Science if AP is offered, students should take those. So with the required STEM APs for some of these magnets, adding English and History to AP mix amounts to at least 4 a year in Junior and Senior years. It’s been a struggle for me to explain it’ll be ok if they take fewer and I definitely feel like I’ve gone against the trend in that recommendation- just for their wellbeing. They still didn’t want to listen to me, but scheduling conflicts thankfully forced them to adjust their workloads down (mind you, to like 3-4 APs in a year instead of 5!) With everything else being honors or essentially AP rigor due to required magnet specific classes.

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This has been going on for at least 6 years. AP board says to limit it to a few of interest. Principals say kids are too stressed out by taking too many APs. Colleges say “It’s not us”. Yet, the packed AP schedules and pressure to take APs continues. According to what I’m hearing, it’s parents that are pushing the high number of APs. And once a few kids are taking the max number, other kids feel like if they don’t they’ll be at a disadvantage. One of the nearby “pressure cooker” schools with a high suicide rate tried to cut back one year. But, because it was never made a formal policy, I haven’t seen the number of AP classes taken by the kids looking for T20 admissions decrease.

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Consider the general college bound student population who may be going to moderately selective colleges or starting at community colleges, and compare to the forum population of high achieving students aiming for the most selective colleges and trying to find every possible competitive advantage (including their counselors’ checking the “most demanding schedule” and “one of the top few achievers”) for applying to the most selective colleges.

The recommendation to take a few APs of interest or when/if natural progression (in math or foreign language) gets there is likely aimed at the more general student population, and will be ignored by those aiming for the most selective colleges.

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At least two aspects of college admissions help fuel an AP race: (1) emphasis on rigor of the transcript (related, the “most demanding” check box on the Common App counselor form) and (2) the consideration of rank (or decile/quartile) based on weighted GPA.

Even though most high schools no longer report rank, many report decile or quartile ranges by weighted GPA. I recently noticed that Common App now includes this option when it asks whether the applicant’s high school reports by quartile or decile. If the applicant selects one of those, they are then required to report their own quartile or decile.

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Also, the counselor report asks the counselor to rank the student in comparison to others. This may be subjective, depending on the counselor.

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The problem my kids experienced was that there wasn’t a good “honors” option in many subjects, so it was a long way down to the alternative if you passed up an AP class. The strong students all took AP’s, and the regular-level classes were just not great. It became a choice between being bored and frustrated, or overextended, and overextended won because bored and frustrated was even worse.

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I am calling BS on the College Board, Stanford, et al. Selective schools also say they look at a student “holistically.” Which really means nothing … or everything? It is a big empty box. The reality is colleges want kids who can do the work and handle the academic rigor of the institution. So high school AP’s or similar will most likely always weigh heavily into the decision-making process. Especially since test-optional is now a trend.

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Although some people may suggest just doing the APs that are of interest to a student. Doing so could seriously hurt a student’s chance of admission to the more selective schools.

For example, if one considers the UC system. In 2022, ~70% of the admits to UCB and UCLA had done 10+ honors courses. While only ~7% of admits had < 5. So, if advanced classes are available, a student needs to consider doing more than just the few that they find the most interesting. I very much doubt that this is limited to UCs.

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My child tested into the district’s gifted program in elementary school and was placed on an accelerated track. By the time she entered high school, she had already taken high school algebra and geometry and physics and Spanish. By the time she reached her senior year, the only classes available in many subjects were AP options or community college. And even where a non-AP course was available (like in English), there was a huge gap in rigor between the AP course and the regular course — no Honors option. It would not have demonstrated highest rigor in any way to opt for those classes.

She ultimately took 15 AP courses and there were still students who took more.

In her case, I don’t regret it. She did not end up going to a highly selective school, so it wasn’t a factor in admissions, but it has been huge in getting credit for core curriculum requirements. It may have made high school more challenging, but it has helped alleviate stress (and expense) at college; she is well-equipped for her courses and was able to enroll with junior class standing her first year. This has put her on track to earn multiple degrees in four years. It may also have contributed to her earning the scholarship she received, although we can’t know for sure.

I am sure it is different at schools that offer fewer AP courses or impose limits, but had she taken only 6, it would have knocked her out of the top 5% in her class and her rigor would have not have been commensurate with her peers’. And she would have had to pay for 60-90 more credits at college. I am not sure that would have served her well.

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Yeah, I don’t know what to make of this. Colleges say they want to see kids “challenge themselves with a rigorous course load” — and that usually equates to APs at most high schools (or IB or dual enrollment at a JC).

So, it seems to me it’s the colleges are asking for rigor and AP is the definition of rigor.

My D22 took 12. It was common for juniors and seniors to load up. She took 1 sophomore year, 3 junior year, 5 senior year and 2 online. (Senior year she took macro and micro economics so it was 2 separate tests.) She did well, all As, 4-5s on tests. I don’t know that she would have enjoyed taking other classes since her friends were all with her in those AP classes, but her school did offer electives she may have preferred over AP this or that.

I don’t know that my S26 will do the same. I think he’ll want to take fewer and only in topics he really cares about.

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I agree. Going light on APs would be disastrous for many / most unhooked kids from an outcome point of view. Also the APs are useful in getting credit later on in college. Most strong kids at our school manage a large number of APs without too much stress.

My kid had 12 APs in high school and a bunch of post AP courses. He said his academic load at home was less than 7-8 hours a week of homework, after doing some at school. When he went to college, his overall academic and extra curricular load went up 60% from what it was in the high school. If you don’t get used to a reasonable level of load in high school, you can’t handle a reasonable college load comfortably at a good college. Whether you are stressed by that level of high school load is partly a function of personality

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Every student is different. For some students, a semester of all-AP courses is still a walk in the park. Their high schools may not offer other interesting and/or challenging courses. What are they supposed to do? For some other students, taking a couple of core AP courses could be challenging. How do you keep them from taking more? A meaningless and half-hearted recommendation from the College Board isn’t going to do it. Nor does some equally meaningless and half-hearted statement from the AOs.

There’s a solution to this problem, but few want to hear it. The solution is to grade AP courses more harshly than many high schools do currently. Bad grades, or even failing grades, would deter weaker students from taking courses that aren’t appropriate for them or taking too many of them. They would be more judicious in selecting what courses to take. Course rigor and weighted GPAs would also be more meaningful.

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I was just talking about this with parents and kids at different schools. As others are suggesting, the problem appears to be that at many HS, the most advanced classes are mostly AP classes, so taking a lot of advanced classes means taking a lot of APs.

Our private HS does not work that way. It offers very few AP classes, but it does offer many advanced classes. Indeed, many classes it argues are more advanced than AP classes, but they are not specifically designed to prepare you for AP exams. And if you want to take an AP exam in that area, you may need to self-study, as they have not taught to the test curriculum. And they don’t encourage students to do that, because in their experience colleges do not expect our applications to have a long list of AP scores.

But that’s because our private HS is well-known among selective colleges, with regular placement in such colleges going back a long time. I strongly suspect other high schools without that sort of context have shifted toward their advanced classes being dominated by AP classes in part because that serves as a sort of standardization that can help their applicants clearly communicate the difficulty of their courses to college admissions officers.

And although I am not sure that is ideal for the kids, it is worth noting that is pretty much how most of the world does this–sorta. Like, undergraduate admissions in most of the world involves taking several advanced courses and associated more or less standardized exams–A-levels in the UK and the equivalent in many countries, IB higher levels in many other countries, and so on.

But the thing is, admissions is then very course-specific. So, admissions will typically be based on something like 3 to 5 of these qualifications, and specifically ones relevant to your course.

Like, Oxford Biology admissions requires what they call an A-starAA for A-level applicants, with the A-star in science or math, and one of which has to be Biology and another Chemistry, Physics, or Math. Oxford also lets you satisfy those with IB higher levels of 6 or 7 (plus a certain overall IB score).

Then from the US, Oxford says you can meet the A-starAA with either four AP 5 grades (including required subjects, so you would need Biology to be one of those, and another Chemistry, Physics, or Math, and they have further requirements like that Math should be Calculus BC if available, but AB is OK if BC isn’t an option). OR you can do three APs at 5 plus a 32+ on the ACT or 1470+ on the SAT.

I am pointing this all out because while advanced courses leading to standardized tests is normal in most of the world, what is not normal is thinking you need to take like 12 of these advanced/higher-levels. Indeed, if 3 or 4 relevant APs is enough for Oxford, one might suggest taking a lot more is excessive. Of course since you can only take one course in most of the world (as in if you are admitted to Oxford Biology, that is your course), it makes no sense for them to require more.

But even in the US, although you can take a while to decide, you will only end up with a degree in some particular major (or maybe major and minor). So college-level studies in a gazillion fields in HS being normalized definitely seems not particularly ideal.

But again, I think what is happening here is basically highly-selective colleges are looking for students who do well in a diversity of advanced courses, and HSs in the US are essentially borrowing the AP system as a way of proving course quality to these colleges. And here we are.

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Maybe I wouldn’t put it quite this way but I don’t disagree entirely.

Our (private) school is of the 3/yr and not until 11th schools. An A- is a typical GREAT grade. Even the best students get the ocasional B+. The passing rate is in the high 90’s and most scores are 5s.

Contrast with “the perfect GPA” of her best friend at the LPS but barely managed a 3 in her APs.

At our school it is well known that Honors Pre-Calc is the hardest class in the sequence, with kids putting 2hrs of work each night. Honors Spanish 3 is also the hardest in that track.

Another thing is that APs are not all view equality. The top kids will be taking BC/Euro/Physics C, while others will opt for Stats/Gov/Psych.

Anyway, at the end of the day it is an issue of quantity vs quality. Unlike @neela1’s kid, mine did not feel like her workload was greater at her (I believe the same) tippy top school. Different, but not more. Even if she only took 7 APs in her 4 years of HS.

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Our highly ranked inner ring suburban (but socioeconomically and racially diverse) public high school offers many APs, and virtually no honors sections (except for math and English in 9th and 10th grades). For the approximately 20% of the school who are very high academic achievers, it’s simply assumed that they will take mostly or all AP classes, starting in 10th grade (although APs are available earlier if the student is ready for them, such as with math and foreign language). Aside from the issue of compiling a record for college applications, this is quite simply the best high school education available to these students. I encouraged my kids to take all APs, and especially to take the APs taught by great teachers, in subjects that they didn’t intend to take in college, just for breadth of education. Most of what they took at the AP level in high school was the equal of classes at T20 schools.

The difference in rigor between AP and regular (and virtually never was there an honors level in between) was shocking. In 11th, I forced the kid who was traveling out of town Fri afternoon through late Sunday night every weekend for music, and was in rehearsals for three hours a night at least two, and sometimes three or even four weeknights, to take math and science at the non-honors, non-AP level. Kid said that the classes were a joke, a waste of time, and transferred back to honors math for 2nd semester. More importantly, they said that students in the regular level classes were not interested in learning, did not do their homework or their in-class work, and sometimes behaved disruptively.

So sure, maybe kids at elite private schools where the choice is between a rigorous honors level vs an AP, where kids who disrupt classes are removed from the class and eventually from the school, have the luxury of listening to the AP’s recommendation. Maybe kids who will be admitted based upon non-academic hooks have that luxury. But for unhooked kids coming from non-selective public schools, their best shot at a solid high school education is found in the AP classes, and compiling a record of A’s in the most rigorous classes available to them is a given for even being considered for possible acceptance to highly selective colleges.

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