AP Scores and Admission

[silverturtle]

<p>

Remember what “AP” stands for? Advanced Placement. Unlike the ACT or the SAT, AP exams are NOT designed for and were never intended to serve as a college admissions tool.

</p>

<p>Only the functional validity, not the theoretical intent, is relevant.</p>

<p>

Beyond that, your argument is one-sided. There are plenty of students who get C’s in AP classes and 5s on the exams. Should college admissions officers discount the C then, or treat it as an A?

</p>

<p>I don’t understand your comment about my argument’s being one-sided; can you elaborate?</p>

<p>As for your question, the scenario that you paint is too isolated for me to answer. If a college receives several applicants from a high school and all of them have C’s in an AP class but 5’s on the corresponding exam, yes, I believe that the C should be taken with a significant grain of salt.</p>

[Here_to_Help]

<p>That C could also indicate that the student is just lazy. For context, you really need to see the grades of everyone else in the class. Regular and accurate completion of assignments is different than being able to accurately fulfill an AP exam.</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

That C could also indicate that the student is just lazy. For context, you really need to see the grades of everyone else in the class.

</p>

<p>If you get multiple applicants who have a pattern of good grades with a singular exception and that exception corresponds to a strong AP score, it is not attributable to laziness.</p>

<p>

Regular and accurate completion of assignments is different than being able to accurately fulfill an AP exam.

</p>

<p>Indeed, which is exactly why AP tests should be used to objectively assess students’ knowledge. The course grade only partially comprises assessments of knowledge, and those assessments are moreover non-standardized.</p>

[novaparent]

<p>Silverturtle, you’re essentially saying that every student who takes an AP class should be expected to submit an AP exam score for the class and that admissions officers should compare every score received in the exam with with every grade in the class – and not only for that student but for every other student who applied to the same college and who took the same class and the same exam. That’s a lot to ask of an admissions committee charged with reviewing thousands of applications, particularly when you’ve offered nothing to show that this would be “functionally valid” to arriving at any kind of meaningful result. </p>

<p>There comes a point where admissions committees have to say when. Most are very familiar with the demographics, rigor, and test scores of a particular high school – and when they’re not they have access to pretty detailed information in the school’s profile that submitted as part of the application. </p>

<p>As for Tropian, you’re flat wrong that SAT Subject tests “appear to be an important part of the applicant’s profile.” Like most schools, William and Mary doesn’t even require them, and the schools that do require them typically assign them secondary importance or merely use them for placement.</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

That’s a lot to ask of an admissions committee charged with reviewing thousands of applications

</p>

<p>Many top schools already do it, and they have quite a few applicants. It’s simply in-keeping with the holistic admissions mentality.</p>

<p>

Like most schools, William and Mary doesn’t even require them, and the schools that do require them typically assign them secondary importance or merely use them for placement.

</p>

<p>Most top schools require Subject Test scores and give them quite significant weight. Harvard, for example, says that they give them especially important consideration. After all, Subject Test scores predict college success even better than the SAT/ACT, so this is unsurprising. Considering that AP tests are similar to Subject Tests except longer and more in-depth, it is reasonable to predict that AP scores have great predictive validity.</p>

[Tropean]

<p>

As for Tropian, you’re flat wrong that SAT Subject tests “appear to be an important part of the applicant’s profile.” Like most schools, William and Mary doesn’t even require them, and the schools that do require them typically assign them secondary importance or merely use them for placement.

</p>

<p>novaparent, your zeal to “win” this discussion is causing you to make some awfully misleading representations. silverturtle is again exactly correct that ALL of the most competitive colleges and universities in the United States require multiple SAT subject tests. Here is what appears to be a recent list from another source:</p>

<p>[SAT</a> Subject Test - What Colleges Require the SAT Subject Test?](<a href=“http://collegeapps.about.com/od/sat/a/sat-subject-test-required.htm]SAT”>SAT Subject Tests - What Colleges Require Them?)</p>

<p>The fact that the absolute numerical majority of American colleges and universities don’t require SAT subject tests is irrelevant, as the vast majority of those institutions have non-competitive admissions.</p>

[hillbyrd305]

<p>silverturtle, W&M uses AP scores the way they use them. While you have a good point about checking class grade versus exam grade, you should realize that expecting people to stick to one standard is impossible. People shouldn’t have admission rest on one test score. Using the class grade is a lot more fair.</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

silverturtle is again exactly correct that ALL of the most competitive colleges and universities in the United States require multiple SAT subject tests.

</p>

<p>Well, not all. Stanford is a notable exception, though they still recommend two Subject Test scores.</p>

<p>

silverturtle, W&M uses AP scores the way they use them.

</p>

<p>I’m not sure what your point is.</p>

<p>

People shouldn’t have admission rest on one test score.

</p>

<p>Who is arguing for that?</p>

<p>

Using the class grade is a lot more fair.

</p>

<p>I’m not saying that class grades should be ignored. I’m saying that given the fact that grades are subjective, potentially inflated, and always non-standardized, AP scores should be used to provide supplemental, contextual information.</p>

[Here_to_Help]

<p>

I’m not saying that class grades should be ignored. I’m saying that given the fact that grades are subjective, potentially inflated, and always non-standardized, AP scores should be used to provide supplemental, contextual information.

</p>

<p>Scenario 1:
Student Receives an A in class and a 2 on the AP Exam.
Reason A:
The student did well in class, but the teacher did not teach the right material well enough for anyone in the class to do well on the exam.
Reason B:
The student did well in class and learned a lot, but is not a good test taker.
Reason C:
The student didn’t try hard in class and didn’t learn anything and therefor did poorly on the exam. The teacher just happened to give everyone high marks for the class due to rampant grade inflation.</p>

<p>Scenario 2:
Student receives a C in the class and a 5 on the AP Exam.
Reason A:
There was a bad teacher in the class, so the student spent time studying for the AP exam instead of completing extraneous material for the class.
Reason B:
The student does poorly on classwork due to laziness, but studied hard for the AP exam.
Reason C:
The student is poor at repetitive class work, but is able to show how much he or she learned in the exam setting.</p>

<p>I don’t disagree that they should be used, but I do believe that you think they are more useful than they actually are. </p>

<p>Additionally, at $70 a pop, these tests are expensive. This leads to selection bias for both which tests are taken and who takes them that prevents them from being a reliable source of information. Taking them into account could lead to universities developing a discriminatory structural bias based on class.</p>

[Tropean]

<p>

Additionally, at $70 a pop, these tests are expensive. This leads to selection bias for both which tests are taken and who takes them that prevents them from being a reliable source of information.

</p>

<p>The misinformation and straw men in this thread continue. From the CollegeBoard website:</p>

<p>[AP</a> Exams - AP Fee Reductions](<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/waivers/guidelines/ap]AP”>AP Exam Fee Reductions – AP Central | College Board)</p>

<p>[AP</a> Exam Fee Assistance - 2010 Details by State](<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/ap/coordinate/fee-assistance/state]AP”>Higher Education Professionals | College Board)</p>

<p>For those unwilling and/or unable to click through, the College Board itself knocks $22 off the price of the AP for students in financial need. Then the states (at least the states I browsed through; I’m not willing to invest endless time to this thread) come in and pick up the remainder of the price for the test, making the cost to the financially-strapped student in almost all cases $0 (in some cases it looks like the kid still has to come up with $5). So the disparate impact based on “class” is a red herring.</p>

[novaparent]

<p>Zeal to win? Hardly; just a zeal to avoid the spreading of misinformation. </p>

<p>We’re on a William and Mary admissions board and you are arguing that SAT II scores are “an important part of the applicant’s profile.” I think it’s important to note, for the benefit of those who are drawn to this board to learn about WILLIAM AND MARY admissions, that you are flat wrong. You’re also flat wrong in asserting more generally that SAT II scores are “an important part of the applicant’s profile.” They may be important at Harvard, but that doesn’t mean they are important at every or even most top schools. </p>

<p>In any event, AP exams are not SAT subject tests. I commend William and Mary for drawing the right line.</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

In any event, AP exams are not SAT subject tests. I commend William and Mary for drawing the right line.

</p>

<p>Where exactly does the significant difference lie?</p>

[Here_to_Help]

<p>Its good to see that they do reduce the price (it was not intentional misinformation on my part by any means, please stop your hurtful accusations. You simply need to make your counterpoint. That is the purpose, and indeed usefulness, of debate.), however actual ability to pay can not merely be defined by 185% of the poverty line. This is a common problem with all of welfare. Your point does diminish mine significantly in importance, but it does not get rid of it. </p>

<p>My first point still has not been addressed: how do you know what the difference between AP and class scores actually mean? If you don’t know, then it is a futile effort to rejudge your opinion of a student’s grade. </p>

<p>I will give you that the AP exams do say something, just as almost any test will. However, there are more widespread tests that are better indicators of student’s ability to regurgitate information. Where do you draw the line in how many tests are required?</p>

<p>Also, do you agree that the lack of universality and lack requirements to take and report the score takes something away from the test’s ability to describe the student?</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

how do you know what the difference between AP and class scores actually mean?

</p>

<p>In isolation, one cannot know with significant reliability. In patterns, however, one can make well-supported conclusions.</p>

<p>

However, there are more widespread tests that are better indicators of student’s ability to regurgitate information.

</p>

<p>I’m not sure what tests you’re referring to. </p>

<p>

Also, do you agree that the lack of universality and lack requirements to take and report the score takes something away from the test’s ability to describe the student?

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<p>AP tests don’t describe the student; they indicate whether a student has successfully learned and applied the specific information. In cases in which the student’s family is unable to pay for the exam, the lack of an AP score should not be an admissions detriment. But unreported scores (without reasonable explanation) and poor scores should lessen the meaning of good grades in the corresponding classes, as the scenario indicates grade inflation. Likewise, when a school receives several applicants from a high school, AP scores could serve to reveal which classes have unusually deflated grades.</p>

[Here_to_Help]

<p>

In isolation, one cannot know with significant reliability. In patterns, however, one can make well-supported conclusions.

And so wasn’t the purpose of the AP exams to “provide objective context to those grades” [your words]? And isn’t it W&M’s claim to a good admissions process based on being holistic and not on aggregate numbers? It is not possible to obtain holistic information from AP scores and should therefor not be used.</p>

<p>Your response will likely be “well, we use SATs and GPAs.” My response will be along the lines of “why use a tradition of sin to justify sinning?” And qualify that the SATs are not as rigid as APs because you can take it multiple times and take the ACT instead. And GPAs can be broken down into class by class and year by year to examine progress over time - a more holistic measure. APs would only be for one subject (not necessarily even a class) and measured only on one day. Does that mean its useless? No. Does that mean its less useful? Yes. Less useful to the degree that it shouldn’t really be used? W&M Admissions think so.</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

And so wasn’t the purpose of the AP exams to “provide objective context to those grades” [your words]? And isn’t it W&M’s claim to a good admissions process based on being holistic and not on aggregate numbers? It is not possible to obtain holistic information from AP scores and should therefor not be used.

</p>

<p>I don’t understand your point. What do you mean by “holistic information from AP scores”? The parts culminate in a holistic review; each part iself need not be holistic.</p>

[Here_to_Help]

<p>Perhaps I used the wrong word then… Other tests and other numerical measures employed to judge a student’s application allow for more of a long term outlook that prevents any short term externalities from seriously effecting how the student present him or herself. Most would agree that this is a good thing. That is essentially what W&M Admissions said.</p>

<p>

silverturtle, while there is no doubt that an AP or IB exam measures what was or was not learned in a class to an extent, there is no way to account of any extenuating circumstances (someone not feeling well or having a teacher who didn’t provide practice tests, etc). We tell students that one’s four-year record is high school is more telling and more important to us than one’s four-hour record on a Saturday morning (when comparing the transcript to the SAT/ACT). While the SAT/ACT are objective measures they are far from flawless in measuring aptitude and potential. Same with the AP scores. They have some merit but one’s four-hour record in an exam should not erase nine months of work in a course…at least that’s how we feel.

</p>

<p>Your response, and indeed starting argument, was that AP exams show context. I have shown that to be false for the individual. You replied that it shows aggregate patterns. And my response is essentially the first paragraph above. If you want to judge long term patterns in a fair manner for the individual (as W&M wishes to do), GPA and SAT are better measures for the reasons given in my previous post. No significant and reliable information is gained from examining AP exams either alone or in context of the class.</p>

[W_amp_M_Admission]

<p>Certainly there’s an interesting debate here with a lot of merit to it. And to clarify my earlier point, we do not assume that someone who gets a lower AP exam score automatically just had a bad day but we have simply chosen not to make AP exam scores or SAT II subject tests a required part of our application process (or even a recommended part for that matter) for several reasons. 1) Reporting those scores can be very expensive making the application process even less welcoming to lower-income students. 2) Most students have few if any AP exam scores at the time of application since the bulk of AP exams are take at the end of the senior year. 3) In moving to the Common Application our goal was to simplify the application process. Just because there are a few factors we do not use that other selective colleges do does not mean that W&M is not holistic in it’s approach as we very much are.</p>

<p>That being said, if students choose to report AP exam scores or SAT II results we see them and if someone does smashingly it’s not as if that’s going to hurt them. But students who do not report these scores or who do less well are not disadvantaged.</p>