<p>These are the course decisions my jr son is making right now for his sr year. Advice so far has been that stat is useful for everything while hs calc is really only needed if he plans to go into a technical field. He is leaning towards the stat. He has no idea "what he wants to be." What is the general consensus out here, if there is one?</p>
<p>He likes the course description for AP environmental science, but I find it odd to not take physics in hs. Not sure why AP physics is not an option, but is not.
What should he consider when making these choices?</p>
<p>Take physics. AP Enviro is a ******** class. it has the "AP" title but physics is a more important and better looking class. Take it if it really appeals to you or if youve already taken physics, but not because of the "AP." My school doesn't offer AP physics either, but i was told by multiple counselers that physics is better than enviro, AP credit be damned. </p>
<p>I would think that the opposite is true for the math classes. I can't imagine using statistics. Odd. Calc is required by most colleges, so he's going to take it anyway, so don't take it because you don't think you'll use it. </p>
<p>I don't know about the math classes, although i would lean towards calc. for the science, go with physics unless your heart is really in enviro. I was in the same position.</p>
<p>Don't you need calc to do physics properly? I think they're pretty well linked. My daughter took pre-calc and physics I as a Junior, and then Calc AP and Physics AP as a senior. Environmental science is very interesting, but I don't think it's as impressive or rigorous as physics. I took a college survey course in Evironmental Science about ten years ago, and really enjoyed it.....the fully evolved tectonics studies are fascinating and much different from the Earth Science we had in the 70s....but it still seems like science for non-majors--not technical at all. Anyway, I have a very intense math/physics daughter in college who has yet to take stats, with no sign of that being a problem. My feeling is that anyone can take stats or ES, regardless of their eventual major, but it might be a good idea to get the calc and physics in during HS.</p>
<p>Im taking the AP Enviro route over honors physics but I want to go into Environmental journalism or environmental law and I hate physics/mathy topics...so it only made sense for me. I think your son should pick what he likes better.</p>
<p>It depends a bit on what would drive the course selection -- interest in the subject or hopes of admission to selective colleges and universities.</p>
<p>Statistics is useful in almost any discipline, and almost necessary to understand policy decisions as a citizen. Calculus is the traditional entry point to college math and is required for college level work in physics and engineering. It is probably helpful in all the sciences, as well as in economics.</p>
<p>My understanding is that colleges look on AP Calculus, especially AP Calculus BC as the real deal for math preparation for college, and that AP Statistics is just not as challenging. Don't know about AP Environmental Studies versus Physics.</p>
<p>NJRes,
Depends on what type of schools your son is thinking about. If he might be a candidate for the ultra-elite schools, AP Stat and AP Enviro. have "soft" reputations in terms of rigor. If he thinks he might be a social sciences major, he will probably have to take a Statistics course in college.</p>
<p>If your son is to do any science in college, then I think he should take calculus (it's the class that is required for all the basic engineering, math and physics courses in college, and is eventually needed in chemistry, biology and economics as well). Statistics can wait until later (it will be part of the curriculum at some point for pretty much all social and natural sciences majors too), so he might as well wait until he can take a calculus-based statistics class in college.</p>
<p>Students in my school have the option of doubling up in math their senior year, i.e. take AP Stats and AP Calc. I didn't have room in my schedule for both, so I opted for Calc, considering I took Precalc last year and it seemed like the logical choice. Plus, I have the same teacher, and he's very thorough. </p>
<p>However, my friends who doubled up this year say that Calc is much more challenging and interesting. Stats is basically plug-and-chug math. They give you random, complex equations, and you plug numbers in, and voila there's your answer. Stats isn't treated as a necessary class for college admissions, and I've never heard guidance counselors advocate it over calc. I've also heard the AP Stats test is comparatively easy; if your son had the motivation, he could self study for Stats while taking AP Calc as a class and take both AP tests at the end of the year.</p>
<p>As for the science, the situation in our school is reversed- we have AP Physics but regular Environmental Science. Personally, I think physics would be more beneficial unless your son is considering a career in ES, as a previous poster mentioned. I've heard that Physics is part of the "holy trinity" of sciences, along with biology and chemistry :). It would certainly be beneficial for your son to take it, <em>if</em> he's interested. </p>
<p>driver, I'm taking AP physics this year along with AP Calc, and I haven't had any difficulty regarding lack of math skills or anything. I think they're really good to take together, since their topics complement each other nicely.</p>
<p>
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driver, I'm taking AP physics this year along with AP Calc, and I haven't had any difficulty regarding lack of math skills or anything. I think they're really good to take together, since their topics complement each other nicely.
[/quote]
I agree completely, based on my daughter's college experience. Several of the required calculus and physics courses are nearly identical (just have different course #s), and a school with a great physics department needs to have a great math department to make it all work. A lot of concurrent cross-disciplinary stuff going on. I guess my point was, if you're not going to take calc, forget physics.</p>
<p>I took AP Calc, AP Physics, and AP Env. Science, so I'll add my $0.02. </p>
<p>AP Environmental Science or Regular Physics?
I would definitely NOT pressure your son to take physics if he doesn't want to. I took AP Physics C my senior year without having prior physics, struggled through, hated it, and (thank the fates) got college credit for it. If he plans to major in any of the sciences (including Env. science), physics is the way to go, though. Environmental science can easily be understood with a solid understanding of biology and chemistry. However, taking calculus-based physics (which physics courses in college are) without having had a broad, easier intro to physics would be a very bad idea. In short, if your son is absolutely certain he doesn't want to go into any science field, Env. Science is the right choice. If he is not sure, physics is the way to go. Both are <em>relatively</em> easy, and neither is likely to get college credit. If he goes the physics route, it is certainly possible for him to self-study APES. </p>
<p>AP Calculus or AP Stats
This is one of those cases where you lose either way. :rolleyes: Statistics is essential in a good many fields, science and humanities alike. Calculus is less essential, but more difficult to pick up. If you had to learn a new math in college, would you rather learn calc or stats? I would suggest calculus for high school and stats for college. Many colleges require a certain type of statistics. At Duke, social sciences require statistical inference (Stat 101), whereas biology majors are suggested to take biostatistics (Stat 102) or probability (Stat 103). Thus, even if your son takes AP Stats, it's possible he may have to take another statistics course. Upper level statistics courses require calculus, which is something else to consider.</p>
<p>AP Stats and AP Env Sci. are considered AP "Lite" by a lot of people and might not get recognized as being a very rigorous curriculum. I'd really go for the AP calc and physics. I am taking AP Env. Sci this year as a senior in HS but I already took physics.</p>
<p>Take the calculus and physics--even liberal arts schools look for the "holy trinity" of science classes (biology, chemistry and physics) to show the applicant has a solid foundation. Not taking physics is a red flag that a student didn't take the most challenging curriculum available. Regular or honors physics trumps any fluffy AP class like psychology or ES.</p>
<p>Calculus is required now for economics, business and any science, so best to take it and again show that you took the most challenging course available.</p>
<p>Another consideration is where you would rather learn calculus -- in a high school class of 30 people or a college lecture hall with 300 people (if you are headed to State U). I've read several places that calculus is taught better at the high school level than at many intro university classes led by TAs.</p>
<p>My junior daughter and her friends are debating the AP calculus AB vs. statistics issue right now, too. The wrinkle is that the calc teacher in their school gets mixed reviews and is an extemely hard grader (in a school that doesn't weight grades), while they all love the statistics teacher. My daughter is actually flirting with the idea of taking calculus over the summer at a community college. It's a dilemma; she's not a science/math person, and I question her taking calculus just because of college admissions. She would probably get an A in statistics and enjoy the class, while struggle to get a B+/A- in calculus and potentially be miserable.</p>
<p>Warblersrule86 - I only wish that my son had read your post last fall! His school urged that he and another "strong" science student skip over Physics I to take Physics II Advanced (the equivalent of calculus based AP Physics) his senior year. Bad, bad idea.... He has struggled with Physics II Advanced all year. They are using a text that's normally used by engineers in college, and it's no picnic. He has a tutor who's a doctoral candidate in Physics at Rice and even he admits that he sometimes has to think twice before answering some of the problems posed by the text. In one sense, this experience is good. It's the first time he's had to struggle to get a "B" and he has a more realistic idea of just how tough a class can be. But it has made his senior year very difficult. </p>
<p>I would go for regular introductory Physics over AP Enviro, unless you have a strong personal interest in the latter. But I would advise anyone against skipping intro physics if your school has a two-tier system. I would tend to take the Calculus since it's so basic to college math classes and leave the Stats for college.</p>
<p>I must agree with most of the posters on one part...it really depends on the selectivity of schools he's looking into for college...but if it's not highly selective here are my opinions/experiences. </p>
<p>My two cents worth is that it doesn't matter either way what he decides to take! I personally would take Statistics...In my undergraduate program in geology I wasn't required to take a Statistics course and am now seeing how useful it would be to me today in graduate school and will likely suck it up and take a graduate level statistics course as a PhD student (without any previous study in Stat...yay! :(). </p>
<p>I didn't take either Statistics or Calc in high school, and if I had taken AP Calc in high school I would have NEVER taken the credit for it in college. Most undergraduate advisors in departments will agree (especially in the sciences). AP classes are not college classes and shouldn't be used towards your major or subjects of interest. All decent college math and science courses include lab facilities that are few and very far between in a high school setting, including Calculus. I had a lab for each of my Calculus courses which I retrospectively see merit in...I also saw students who did receive AP credit struggle through higher level Calculus or end up re-taking Calc I and never show up since they thought they knew everything (and thus get lower grades that I).</p>
<p>As for the Physics/AP Enviro Science debate...</p>
<p>Let him choose what interests him. I also didn't take physics my senior year of high school. I was traumatized by algebra based physics in my honors general science as a freshman that I vowed never to take physics as a senior (or in college for that matter). I ended up having to take a year of calculus based physics in college and found it much easier and actually loved electricity and magnetism! If the physics course isn't calculus based, it will likely be more abstract and may be more difficult to understand depending on the person...</p>
<p>My senior year I had taken a half semester class called Environmental Biology (not AP or anything like that...just college prep) and loved it. It was really easy, but I got to express my love for the environment and it ultimately made me choose to take Environmental Geology my first semester of college, which in turn made me switch my major from Environmental Studies/Business to Geology!</p>
<p>As for the "holy trinity" of sciences:</p>
<p>I really wish I could find the article about PCB Syndrome...going to look for it, it's a great and enlightening read!</p>
<p>Digression re: AP Physics C:
I guess I'm an outlier: I'm not so sure taking calculus-based physics without taking the "baby" course first is such a big mistake. Providing you have the required math background to do so.</p>
<p>Yes the calculus-based course is very hard. It was really hard for me too, back in the stone ages when I took it in college. And I had the baby course first. I don't think it helped me much playing in the big leagues. The level is just that far beyond that I don't think it matters.</p>
<p>I think a number of Physics concepts are much easier to understand using calculus. </p>
<p>So my opinion is yes it's tough, really tough, but they're not missing that much by missing the baby course. And if they actually have the calculus background to actually learn the material at a comprehensible (higher) level, they should use it. Physics just makes so much more sense this way. To me.</p>
<p>AS for the OP:</p>
<p>My daughter thought her AP statistics class was a joke. One semester's work (or less) stretched over two semesters. Hardly even a math class, in her opinion. Very boring, to her. Easy, even trivial, conceptually, but they filled it up with busy work, group assignments, projects, etc. to fill up the time so there was still some work involved.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My daughter thought her AP statistics class was a joke. One semester's work (or less) stretched over two semesters. Hardly even a math class, in her opinion. Very boring, to her. Easy, even trivial, conceptually, but they filled it up with busy work, group assignments, projects, etc. to fill up the time so there was still some work involved.
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That's the reaction from the students at our school also. If it were a one-semester course, it might be worthwhile, but as a full year course it's usually seen as more of a "I don't want to take math but I want my transcript to look good so I'll take this AP class" kind of thing. I took a VERY FULL year of probability and statistics in college, so I know it can be done, but AP Stats classes apparently aren't usually structured that way.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if your student isn't looking to major in a math or science field in college, or needs/wants to take a statistics course and doesn't mind that it may move glacially, there are plenty of students that take AP Stats each year successfully! (Note: many colleges my older S looked at last year would give incoming students credit for good scores on AP Calc and AP Phys, but not AP Stats. Just a data point, if that's important to your student.)</p>
<p>(PS: Although it was many years ago, I elected not to take a physics course in high school, and never did so in college. I now highly regret my decision: I am thinking of taking a community college or extension course just so I can explore the basics that I never got in school!)</p>