<p>calculus, hands down.</p>
<p>WHY? I just don't get it? wouldn't classes in line with passions be better? What in the world is wrong with AP Stats</p>
<p>I get the feeling its this easy way out- take Calc it is hard it looks good </p>
<p>Colleges to to expand there vision and to me it is the ultimate of laziness to just spout of take Calc...what taking it Once in HS is not enough, you need TWO YEARS?</p>
<p>Tell, me why is Calc so importatnt, because it is HARD? other classes are hard- try taking AP Stat, Econ, TWO AP history Classes, a religion Class, an AP Enlgish Class and Philosphy</p>
<p>First of all - Calc doesn't need to be hard. I took it twice (cuz I had to). The first time only one girl in the whole class had serious problems at all, everyone else was doing fine and really liked the class; the second time no one besides me (who already knew the material) got what the teacher was talking about.
The reason you need calc is because it is so important. You cannot do advanced physics, chemistry, computer science or economics without it. And there are many principles in art and music where Calc applies as well. After I took it I was like "how could I ever make sense of the world before taking calc?" because it helps to explain some everyday phenomena as well. Statistics depends on Calc too. And that's the problem with AP Statistics - it is not Calc based, but introductory college statistics classes are usually Calc based.</p>
<p>i'm not saying ap stats isn't a good class - but it's not a substitution for calculus, in much the same way that journalism or creative writing are not substitutes for ap english. </p>
<p>why is calculus important? well, according to a lot of educational research - including work done by the college board and the act themselves - the best predictor of achievement in the first year of college is not scores on the sat, act, or ap exams, as many of us are aware. instead, the strongest indicator of future college success is, of course, academic preparation...researchers have determined that the strongest correlation existing between high school preparation and college success is actually exposure to and work done in calculus. in fact, a study done solely on african-american high school and college students recently found that those who simply took calculus in high school - regardless of the grade they received in the course - did better in their first year of college than their peers at similar colleges and universities who did not take calculus. another study looking at urban high school districts in texas had similar findings; yet another done in the florida public education system found that students taking the most advanced math courses offered to them did better than their peers when compared after the first year of college. Cliff Adelman - perhaps best known for his research titled "the toolbox revisited" done for the department of education, also makes this clear...he also does a good job of explaining that latino students, in particular, are far less likely to attend high schools where advanced math is taught - correlating directly to their levels of college achievement and graduation rates.</p>
<p>calculus is not an easy subject - but it does expose students to valuable analytical skills, critical thinking skills, and spatial thinking, all of which are necessary in studying other forms of mathematics, the physical and biological sciences, and some parts of social and behavioral sciences.</p>
<p>but does EVERYONE need it for two years? comeone, not EVERYONE is going into the science, many many many are not, and one year of Calc is plenty...other math classes would be so much more useful for many people</p>
<p>And please "principals" sure in music, but TWO years is not needed to get the concepts and the ideas</p>
<p>My D took Calc.... I am just saying why are two years needed for many many students</p>
<p>Say, for instance you are a Poly Sci major...wouldn't AP Stats and Econ be serve one better after taking a Calc class</p>
<p>I just find the idea the two years of Calc is necessary to succeed in college, I just don't believe it is for many strong students</p>
<p>I would bet you when they actually do some studies, you wil find that two years of Calc in HS are not necessary, and that other math based classes would create a more rounded, intelligent, class</p>
<p>It is not SO IMPORTANT for many people, not for two years anyway</p>
<p>That is the line they want to feed you</p>
<p>Does the drama kid need two years, the journailism major....why isn't one year enough?</p>
<p>I don't buy the party line...I think logic classes, puzzles, chess, other kinds of classes would be more benefial to many students, throw in some accounting, business math, investment, budgeting, etc</p>
<p>Now that would be beneficial</p>
<p>I just think there are other ways to teach critical thinking, analysis, etc etc etc then to rely on one class, it is frankly a lazy way of approaching education</p>
<p>do you really think that TWO years of one subject is the best approach to success for many students, especially those that you talk about</p>
<p>what about classes in what are practical life classes that are NOT easy</p>
<p>I am not saying take three years of math, no, four is best, but the 4th year doesn't nor shouldn't HAVE to be Calc...</p>
<p>There are many other ways of teaching aluable analytical skills, critical thinking skills, and spatial thinking....</p>
<p>When I was growing up, I learned about computer science using M&Ms...I played chess and played it well, I did logic puzzles, games, studied accounting, looked at the national budget</p>
<p>To use Calc as a crutch and not looking at other ways to teach the same concepts is as I said lazy</p>
<p>If the ONLY way to teach critical thinking is through one cClass, then we have a serious problem with our education system here</p>
<p>When you have kids that don't understand credit, debt, read a contract, understand how the GNP works, etc, but can do a difficult math problem, we are missing a big opportunity</p>
<p>My D took one year of Calc, and as I said is taking some difficult courses. She has learnedmore useful stuff in her Stats class than she ever learned in Calc</p>
<p>She thinks critically, sees all sides, uses what she has learned in real world scenarios</p>
<p>DO you not think that those same valuable analytical skills, critical thinking skills, and spatial thinking skills could be taught in other ways?</p>
<p>Why the feeling that the only choice is Calc for two years? it is lazy and unimaginative to think that those skills can ONLY be taught in Calc</p>
<p>Sure teach higher math, but ALSO offer and RESPECT alternative ways of teaching those concepts.</p>
<p>It is that lack of respect for other ways of getting concepts that is sad to me</p>
<p>I did well in Calc in HS and in College, but I would have been better served as a young person doing accounting, learning about interest rates, understanding government and company budgeting</p>
<p>We do puzzles in our house, you know the kind with a picture of a flat box that you have to imagine as three dimensional, the word puzzles, the logic ones</p>
<p>I just still feel that it is unimaginitive, and frankly lazy to think that only one kind of class can teach those ideas</p>
<p>Take a look at the LSAT test, now that is some fun stuff, and I bought the prep books for my Ds to use to expand how they think....</p>
<p>My disclaimer is that I did not take Calculus and Stats until college, and I have a daughter who has taken AP Cal BC as a Junior....and her area of interests include theatre/international politics/philosophy..I have seen the benefits of taking the more advanced Calculus course in HS play out in her other classes..I have seen first hand at my Ds large urban public hs the students of color who took on the challenge of the AP Calculus...which all support AdOfficers position. The rigors of taking on the more advanced class can positively shape the students study habits, and manner of discecting material from other courses...my 2 cents</p>
<p>cgm:</p>
<p>I concur that it doesn't HAVE to be two years of calc, but the OP's HS curriculum makes it so. As others have noted, a typical HS math curriculum is Alg, Geom, Alg II, Pre-Calc and AP Calc BC (altho I know of a few schools that reverse the Geom-Alg II order). Of course, if someone takes Alg 1 (and/or Geom) in middle school, taking Calc works easily into the senior year schedule. However, the OP's school does not appear to track the same way. If I understand simpson's post correctly (and I may not) his/her HS offers the equivalent of AP calc over two years. </p>
<p>AP Stats is an excellent course, but it only requires knowledge of Algebra 1, so the temporaral-spatial reasoning is limited at best. </p>
<p>Btw: Some Calif high schools now offer Algebra 1 over two years so the math-challenged kids can grasp the concepts and pass the class for graduation.</p>
<p>OP, where are you planning to apply? I think most of us are thinking of admissions requirements at highly selective schools. If you are going to a state school (not one of the highly selective ones) or a smaller school that doesn't really care ... you really may not need to take AP calc. I know lots of kids who got into schools without it. I think it really does depend on the schools you are considering. </p>
<p>bluebayou, S had algebra 1 over 2 years (7th & 8th - prealgebra in 6th). He is amazingly well off because of it. I recommend it highly, not just for the math-challenged. The difference in his skills vs. the program his sister had is incredible. If only I had known with the first what I have found out since ...</p>
<p>AdOfficer, do/can colleges look past a student taking AP Stat over AP Calc? In order to fit in other classes, I could not take both. My math teacher at the time suggested I take Stat since I was planning on studying psychology.</p>
<p>Simpson and Kiss, in your cases, I would recommend AP Stats over Calculus. AdCon is correct in comparing AP Stats vs. Calculus to Journalism/Creative Writing vs. AP English. But, I think it really depends on your situation. </p>
<p>In our case, D#1 is a math/science geek and all her like-minded friends took all the math courses our hs offered (including AP Stats AND AP Calculus). They agree that AP Stats isn't "real" math. That said, D#2, who shares Simpsons's opinion that math has always been the least favorite subject, (even though she has done well), is heading to AP Stats and Discrete Mathematics for her jr. and sr. year. D#1 is heading off to wallow in math and science in college; D#2 will probably be going a more liberal arts heading. It really depends on your interests. Don't take a class just because it will look good on a transcript.</p>
<p>DS2 is in an IB program. He'll take Calc AB junior year to get through the SL exam and run fron it in glee. He's probably going to be a history/int'l relations/environmental science major -- not a hard math/science major. Stat is useful for a social sciences major, as many of us found out in college when we had to take it!</p>
<p>from the CC own website: they are saying one year of Calc is enough...you don't need to which is what the OP is asking</p>
<p>Stats or Calculus for Business Major?</p>
<p>f you're aiming for highly selective colleges and universities, most admission officials consider calculus to be more challenging than statistics and thus look upon it somewhat more favorably. However, if you'd be taking stats at the AP level and calculus at the regular or college-prep level, we'd vote for the AP class. You'll probably find the stats to be a better bet for a business major, too, although in many business programs--especially the more elite ones--you will be expected to take both stats and calc. </p>
<p>Overall, this is a close one, so, if other concerns intervene (e.g., scheduling conflicts, teacher preferences), you can't go wrong with either.</p>
<p>having looked at many college sites, many say Calc Or PreCalc, along with other AP classes</p>
<p>So, you don't have to take Calc TWICE in order to be cosidered to some very selective schools, so long as your schedule is challenging</p>
<p>I think that AP Statistics is easy...IF you've taken Calculus. Some people make the wrong decision at my school to take it senior year because they've heard it's an "easy AP"...but this, for the most part, is wrong. The reason why it's easy, in my opinion, is because AP Calculus is much harder, so it's like a nice little math break after Calculus wears you down :P </p>
<p>So yes...I'd say go for Regular Calculus, especially since you haven't really encountered it before. It'll probably help you more than Stats when you have to take math in college (well, depends on your major I guess) =D</p>
<p>citygirlsmom...
i didn't say anything about taking calculus for 2 years...taking ab calculus is fine; if a student is interested in studying math or science in college, then bc calculus should be taken. also, precalculus and calculus are not the same subject - often, precalculus is trigonometry and analytical math - both an intro to calculus. </p>
<p>i was not a huge math fan in high school (it intimidated me), but i doubled up in high school one year (took geometry and algebra II in 10th) so that i could take calculus my senior year...i struggled through it, hated the subject, and was left wondering why i took it....until i got to college. my work ethic changed completely and i had the confidence that i could tackle any academic challenges set before me. it also truly helped me with classes in logic, philosophy, and others that required some deep analytical thinking. also, as a social sciences and history major, calculus helped in a huge way when i had to take advanced stats (i didn't take stats in hs - it wasn't offered); i wound up taking calc in college, even though i didn't have to at my school, and realized it was actually pretty cool. </p>
<p>will we look at a kid who has taken ap stats in lieu of ap calculus favorably? possibly. but if ap calc or regular calculus is offered and a student applying to a highly selective school doesn't take it, they probably will be at a disadvantage. remember, we are looking for students who have challenged themselves as much as possible academically. in addition, there are plenty of students interested in majoring in art, music, theater, english, whatever arts and humanities you can think of, that are still taking ap calculus and getting a's in it...that makes them more competitive than a student opting out of calculus.</p>
<p>AdOffficer's point about the competition should not missed, IMO, at least for highly selective, private schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
in addition, there are plenty of students interested in majoring in art, music, theater, english, whatever arts and humanities you can think of, that are still taking ap calculus and getting a's in it...that makes them more competitive than a student opting out of calculus.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>its a lazy way of teaching what they think kids need, IMO</p>
<p>and if you think those skills can ONLY be taught in Calc, you are mistaken</p>
<p>I think someday colleges will see that as well</p>
<p>you also have TONS of students, Aplus students who do very poorly in Calc, because MANY MANY teachers can't teach it in HS...WHEN they fix that problem, maybe..</p>
<p>but to disrespect students who didn;t take every single AP class offered, is stupid IMO</p>
<p>"you also have TONS of students, Aplus students who do very poorly in Calc, because MANY MANY teachers can't teach it in HS...WHEN they fix that problem, maybe.."</p>
<p>I'm behind cgm on this one, and not with my usual friend, blue. ;), or with AdOfficer whom I do respect:)</p>
<p>I had mentioned on another thread the poor math program at my D's school --an otherwise stand-out private that most people would like to attend. It has 2 problems in this dept: one is the misguided curriculum, which sloppily "integrates" all the math disciplines while teaching none of them competently & distinctly. The only students who do well in that program are the students already mathematically inclined.</p>
<p>The 2nd problem is what cgm just mentioned: poor teaching. (Although in fairness to teachers, even the best current math teacher is having trouble transcending the limitations of this curriculum.)</p>
<p>So technically the school has "offered" Calculus (WITHOUT pre-calc or similar prep), as well as AP Calc. At the same time, one of their required science classes is seriously compromised by a non-scientifically trained teacher, even though several other science courses are fine. Even the science stars are affected by her teaching, esp. the Honors students.</p>
<p>My daughter will graduate with 15 Honors or AP courses over the 4 yrs. At least 4 of those will be in science & math -- neither subject of which is her strong suit. Three of them will be in the social sciences -- not her absolutely best area, either. In fact, there are much fewer offerings in subjects in which she soars over others, so I'll be darned if I'm going to tell her in Sr Yr. that she's not allowed to take one of the few AP arts offerings & get a darned portfolio together just because there's some arbitrary standard that she "should" take Calculus. She will not be an engineering major, & her course history & e.c. history makes this very clear. Nor will she applying to a place like Princeton with stringent breadth requirements in each area, including 2 lab sciences & additional quantitative courses.</p>
<p>The other analytical, non-calculus courses there require an advanced level of complex analysis & higher level thinking. In most of the courses, it is tough to get an A. The AP and Honors courses there are not taught in the way that many publics present them.</p>
<p>I also think it's time for Universities in general to appreciate that artists, particularly those capable & talented across the board in multiple arts, can be both perceptive & highly analytical when it comes to intellectual material. Not all artists are brilliant, but some are, & those that are can actually be quicker at analysis because they "see" it & often need less time to process the concepts & relationships.</p>
<p>Sorry for the rant, AdOfficer. It's really not directed at you personally. It's just that I hear The Drill over & over from colleges. Just as they are willing to look at many factors other than standardized tests, I think they should similarly be willing to look at the <em>reasons</em> some students in some settings pick the courses that they do.</p>
<p>I agree that we have poor teachers in math, and in science, and in english and in [fill in your favorite subject].....; heck, one of our AP science teachers is beyond horrible, and the Calc teacher is barely tolerable. Unfortunately, taking college prep senior english instead of AP English doesn't look too good for the strength of schedule, and its kinda hard to explain away....</p>
<p>fwiw: in our HS last year, EVERYONE of the kids accepted to a top 20 Uni, including Cal and a couple of top LACS, took Calc BC. The AP Stat seniors are mostly attendng the other UCs.</p>