<p>Both sides here make excellent points, but my original thoughts that I had when posting this was which would be looked upon more favorably, and although it definately seems AP stats is overlooked, and has its considerable benefits, it seems like at the current moment reg. calc isseen as better by colleges looking at transcripts, am I right?</p>
<p>how many kids, smart kids, have posted on this site, with bad grades in Calc, who have gotten A all along...not all those kdis are suddenly slackers..there is a common thread and its poor teachers</p>
<p>what colleges are you looking at</p>
<p>well I'm looking at more selective schools like Georgetown, John Hopkins, Tufts, etc. So you might see why I'm eager to see what would look better on a transcript</p>
<p>blue,
From our school some Srs. who did not take Calc or AP Calc, but were otherwise & in other subjects spectaculary talented, were accepted to UCLA & not interested in applying to Berkeley. A couple got into UChicago.</p>
<p>FWIW I had a weak math program in my similarly otherwise excellent private high school an Ice Age ago. I did not take Calc., whether or not it was offered. (I forget) I probably took 2 or 3 yrs. of h.s.math, as requirements were different then. Yet the analytical requirements at the school were rarefied. When I matriculated at Berkeley my conceptual training was so refined that I was far more fluent & could master much more advanced work without Calc than some of my Berk. classmates could <em>with</em> Calc. It's the entire education -- the offerings, the presentations, the methods of teaching, the course requirements, and the student products -- that makes the difference. It's unfortunate, i.m.o., if colleges (including more than top 20, perhaps) are so rigidly attached to one particular course.</p>
<p>And yes, Berkeley then, too, had aggressive breadth requirements, which included college math.</p>
<p>Adcom: does desired major play a large role in how favorable calc is considered?</p>
<p>cgm:</p>
<p>I guess I've missed the posts to which you refer. I HAVE seen posts where senioritis+cacl = poor grades, however. I concur with your point that it shouldn't be required. However, I have seen absolutely no data to indicate that teaching calc to High schoolers is any different than teaching AP English, AP Physics, or AP Chem. Instead of anecdotes, please provide the Stats (kinda ironic that this word comes up, huh?), to support your hypothesis that Calc is singled out by high schools for bad teaching.</p>
<p>epiph: back in the dark ages, Cal and UCLA accpeted nearly every minimally-qualified applicant. Even better...back in the "good ole days" one could dirve up to USC on the first day of school, apply and register and go to class that very day. Obviously, those days are long gone. </p>
<p>For the record, I'm not a necessarily pro-calc for calc's sake; I think everyone should have a stats class in life, assuming a good teacher. But, as adofficer notes, to stand out, one needs a transcript that looks different than others. There are literally thousands of kids with high math and science scores, but lower english scores; the few kids that have both high math-science and english/humanities awards can really stand out. And, I beleive the reverse is true: humanities major with a strong math-science background will look more favorable to admissions....</p>
<p>but blue, I was not "minimally qualified," with or without Calc. And my subsequent record at Berkeley demonstrated that, not to mention graduate school, which also showed that I had a superior education WITHOUT Calculus, versus many classmates who did take h. school calc. </p>
<p>I understand what you're saying, & to a degree I understand what AdOfficer is saying. It makes sense to "require" or strongly recommend a course either for content reasons or for skill reasons if similar aptitude cannot be demonstrated in other ways. And I understand the point about "what the competition has" (which is a different angle than what I'm talking about).</p>
<p>But just as colleges are examining the value of standardized tests --or the weight of them-- and the signficance of the "AP" title (versus other advanced courses such as were profiled recently on CC at some schools) -- I think they should examine more aspects to a student's ability than a course title. </p>
<p>(For that matter, my D's AP Eng. Lang, & her AP Eng. Lit., is also more demanding than what some of her friends are required to do in the same courses in their own schools.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
My son took both as a senior. He did NOT take the AP test after taking regular Calc. They were not prepared specifically for the test. He had a terrible Stat teacher and managed a terrific 2 on the AP. His math-whiz roommate got a 1.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think they just didn't care. I read the prep book two days before the exam and managed a 5. Anyone who gets a 1 on the exam simply didn't care about the test, since trust me, the AP Stat exam is one of the easiest out there. Scores are really easy to get since so many lazy senior take the exam who couldn't be bothered to lift their pencils.</p>
<p>to the OP - for the schools you are looking at, you need to take calculus. i worked at one of the ones you mentioned...you need to take it if you want to be competitive. </p>
<p>citygirlsmom - "its a lazy way of teaching what they think kids need" - i don't think that teaching a smart kid calculus is a bad thing, especially when you consider the research i cited earlier. is calc the only way to teach kids analytical skills? no - no one has said that...you're reading in to folks' post a little too much here. no one is saying that smart kids who do poorly in calculus are slackers, either. i was valedictorian of my high school class until i took calculus and got a c in it. worked my butt off for that c! still got in to 5/5 ivies i applied to. still went on to an ivy for my graduate work. did i take calculus more than once again in college? no...but did it help me tremendously in other course work? yes. that's why i suggest taking it...the same way i would suggest taking ap english comp rather than a creative writing or journalism class or ap us history instead of civics...</p>
<p>no doubt, there are bad teachers out there...but again, this is a common theme on CC and it's getting tired. i mentioned in another thread how students like to complain about how awful their teacher is in X subject during interviews, yet when we get the application from the student and their peers at their high school, the complainer is usually the only one who did poorly in the class. just because your kid doesn't excel in a subject doesn't mean the teacher is at fault. could the teacher be lousy? sure. could the curriculum at the school be whack (like at epiphany's daughter's school)? yes. could you just be plain not strong in math? or biology? or english? yes. the point is, students need to challenge themselves as much as possible in high school to be prepared for the rigors of college. that's what's important...i'd rather see a kid attempt calculus and get a b-minus than opt out and take ap stats and get an a-minus - calculus is a tougher subject and one that will carry over into other subjects further down the line moreso than stats will - even if the teacher isn't teacher of the year!</p>
<p>simpson98 - demonstrated/desired major can play a role...but again, there are plenty of kids wanting to major in the humanities or arts with strong math curriculums (like through ap calc) who are doing very well in these courses. same with science and math kids - there are plenty of kids wanting to major in computer science, math, and physics with strong humanities and social science curriculums (like through ap english, ap foreign language, ap us history, etc...). because so much of what is taught at the college-level is taught with an interdisciplinary approach, having a strong foundation in all areas is important! sure, there are always exceptions to every rule - everyone on here can probably think of a math grind who got in to a great college without ap spanish or a strong writer who got in to a great college without ap calc bc - but in general you should try to challenge yourself in every subject.</p>
<p>AdOfficer: Do you think the same advice (calculus over stats) holds true for huge publics like the top tier UC's?</p>
<p>Bessie, the adofficer's answer will definitely be a yes. Basically any competitive school.</p>
<p>bingo...^^^^^</p>
<p>well thanks guys, this has been really helpful</p>
<p>READ the websites at competitive schools, I have and they all want a demanding schedule- but taking TWO years of calc...don't see that</p>
<p>and no, not basically any competitive school</p>
<p>^^^^
i'm surprised to hear that many schools are saying they would like, or recommend, two years of calculus. that seems ridiculous, considering most students in high school start with pre-algebra or algebra one. yikes!</p>
<p>
[quote]
simpson98 writes: well, I'm hestitant to invest so much of my time in math because A. I want to major in international relations, and B. Math is both my least favorite class, and my worst academically
[/quote]
All the more reason to take math! In college, and in life, we have to do things we'd rather not. Part of it is delayed gratification. And a big part of it is learning skills like self-discipline, time management, perseverance, how to ask for help, and so on. If you take AP Calc you will develop those skills because you're going to HAVE to in order to pass a class in a subject you dislike. </p>
<p>Approached with the right attitude and determination, this class could even provide you with your best rec! Imagine the power of an adcom reading something from your math teacher that says "Even though Calculus was not Joe's favorite subject, and even though he didn't receive the highest grade in the class, he was my best student this year. It was obvious that it didn't come as easily to him as to some of my other students but he showed a grit and determination to master the subject that was impressive. Joe would work on a topic until he got it, did extra work on his own to make sure he understood it, and earned the respect of all his classmates with his positive and upbeat attitude towards the class. Joe showed he may not have a future in math, but he showed something more important -- he has that rare willingness to dedicate himself fully to accomplishing things he has made up his mind to do."</p>
<p>BTW one piece of advice for those taking Calculus -- get one of the "Problem-Solver" books for it. These are thick workbooks with hundreds of solved problems on each topic you'l cover in calculus. </p>
<p>After reading your textbook you open to the right chapter and then try to solve problems with the solution covered. If you get one wrong the book has the complete steps to get to the answer; read it over until you understand it, then cover the solution and repeat it until you get it right. </p>
<p>You may never enjoy calculus, but do this and I guarantee you'll be able to learn it.</p>
<p>Thanks, mikemac, for the tip!^^^</p>
<p>I wish I had known last year how important taking calculus is. My daughter had a terrible time with pre-calc as a junior; it was her worst class by far. She had two bad teachers. Yes, I know AdOfficer doesn't want to hear that, but it's true. Maybe the math geniuses in her class did fine with these teachers, but the average bright kid who needs bit of explanation once in a while would not. She worked very hard with a peer tutor for three hours a week and managed a 75 for the semester. Ouch!</p>
<p>She signed up for regular calc as a senior (not AP), but as soon as she saw that her only choice was to take it with one of the dreaded pre-calc teachers, she dropped it. She was actually physically sick at the thought of enduring another class with him. So, she signed up for AP Stats and is doing well in the class and likes it. I think she needed a math that was more real-world oriented than theoretical.</p>
<p>I was very disappointed to read last week that one of her reach schools is apparently looking very closely to see whether AP calc was taken senior year. If that's the case, so be it. It's too late to change the past. She's a great kid and has a lot to offer, and I hope the colleges can see that. I guess the problem is that there are a vast number of great kids out there, and the schools need some kind of discrete measurement to separate the herd. She did explain on the Common App about the pre-calc, emphasizing that she didn't give up on it and worked very hard to learn the material. When she takes calc in college she'll just have to know going in that it's going to be tough for her.</p>
<p>LurkNess...
For the record, I have not suggested that bad teaching doesn't exist or that some students don't do well in calculus because of a "bad" teacher...I've always (on this thread and others) acknowledged that not all teachers are created equal and that there are those out there who probably shouldn't be in the profession...however, even with good teachers, tutoring, etc..., some very bright students just aren't strong in calculus. Is this a sin? A reason to deny a student? No...but not challenging oneself academically is a reason to deny a student...and that's the main point here. Your daughter was wise to explain why she opted to take AP Statistics this year in her applications because, otherwise, the officers at the schools she's applied to may not have given her the benefit of the doubt...</p>
<p>Interestingly, I had a chat with my boss the other day about this very topic...it seems like we were both on the same page about relaxing the calculus "rule" a bit this year (despite another record year of applications)...there are a ton of really great students in our applicant pool this year who aren't doing well in calc or who aren't taking it and we are instructing our officers to not be as harsh on the students who haven't taken calculus as they have been in the past...I've personally never been that harsh on them, despite my encouragement to you all to take calculus if you can. </p>
<p>If you do decide not to take calculus though, make sure you're taking something else that's challenging senior year - it's not the time to lighten your courseload!!!</p>