Which is a better program? Is IB a lot harder than AP? Sadly our high school dropped AP and only offers IB, and only for 11th and 12th graders. Very few kids take the AP tests. My S has zero interest in the IB diploma and only wants to do the math, science and English classes. I’m wondering if that will put him at a disadvantage when applying to college. Do top colleges greatly favor IB diploma students over those who don’t do the diploma?
The thing here is that it isn’t AP vs IB for you, if your kids school has dropped AP, it is certificate vs diploma. The diploma will be the most rigorous option over IB certificate, so when he applies and hasn’t done the diploma, he won’t have taken the most rigorous option and this will be shown on his GC report. He can do math, english, and 2 science HLs and just do a language and history SL, no? The EE and TOK and Cas are just not enough to make a real difference, cas is normal for any HSer in the US, the EE is about something he loves, and TOK is just to be tolerated LOL.
The tippy top colleges favor students that are taking the toughest curriculum available at the school. Talk to your Guidance Counselor for more info in regards to your particular hs.
Having said that… there are MANY great colleges, so don’t fret too much over this if IB is not the right fit for your kid.
And really, I think colleges don’t greatly favour IB over AP, but they look at your kid in the context of his school (or that is the rhetoric I hear). I think as a parent, you look at it as the process over the product. The IBD is a process and there is no magic in the product.
A few thoughts on AP vs IB:
As others have noted, what matters in terms of college admission is that you have taken the most rigorous courses offered at your HS. I don’t think there is a large difference between AP and IB in terms of perception of rigor.
But if you are taking AP or IB courses in order to get college credit, then make sure that the colleges you are interested in accept both equally. I’ve read articles about how not all colleges have systems in place to translate IB courses into college credits as are there for AP courses. This may just be a matter of time, as more schools offer IB, but it is worth an admissions office inquiry.
My son’s HS offers both AP and IB, and there are more complaints (among students, parents, and teachers) about the rigidity of the IB requirement structure. OTOH, some classes are run as combined AP and IB classes, with the same readings but different testing structures for students in each program.
When my D was in high school, the IB was free but you had to pay for AP. By the time my S hit high school, 7 years later, AP was free but you had to pay for IB. I think the IB diploma is harder, but my impression when my D was applying to colleges was that most colleges didn’t value it more than AP.
I wouldn’t push someone with zero interest in the full IB diploma towards it. Even those that are interested in it aren’t able to keep up with the demand and stay in the program. 50% of those who enter my school’s selective IB program drop it. IB is meant to create a fully rounded student and does so by emphasizing each area, which can be a really unpleasant two years if that’s not what one wants. CAS is normal volunteering and ECs, TOK is a manageable burden, and the EE is not as bad as it’s reputed to be. But if your IB program is relatively new there may be few choices in HL classes… and if they’re mostly humanities, will be a pain for those who’d rather pick and choose. IB as compared to AP: generally more difficult, much more rigid, and not as easy to get college credit for - but that’s apparently not an option at your school.
Would it be possible to enter 11th as a DP Candidate, and drop it for 12th to Certificate if he feels it doesn’t suit him? It’s a great opportunity, but it’s definitely not for all.
What is it about the IB that your son objects to? As noted, top colleges are looking for the most rigorous curriculum, and at your high school it sounds like that’s the IB diploma program. There may be reasons not to choose the IB, but these should be good reasons that can be explained in his application. My son did the full IB, but in order to fit in his non-IB electives, HE didn’t take math or science his senior year. It worked out well for him, but it was a risky approach.
IB requirements pretty much align with the admissions guidelines of most selective colleges, so even if he were doing all AP he’d be looking at the same basic courses e.g., math, science, English, history, foreign language, art/music. It’s a good idea to be covered in all of these categories, no matter what the overarching program.
The IB’s focus on writing is a big plus in college preparation as is Theory of Knowledge for abstract thinking.
My son’s high school offered both AP and IB. He and his classmates mananaged to get acceptances to very good schools regardless of whether they chose AP, IB or a combination of the two. Many took both AP and IB exams. I wouldn’t say that either program was harder or “better”; however, by offering two competing programs, the school watered down its resources. I would have preferred that they choose one or the other.
Does your high school also offer honors courses? That might be another alternative.
I think the IB diploma path is more rigorous just because you have to take advanced courses in everything as well as meet extra requirements outside of classes. If you are just getting IB certificates in specific subjects then it is comparable to doing AP (ie picking and choosing which subjects are ‘advanced’ and which subjects are not), which is itself a very good program.
However, colleges don’t discriminate against people for not taking courses that don’t exist at their high school; if your school only offers IB, then as far as rigor goes you will only be measured compared to the most rigorous courses that were available in the IB curriculum. The only issue might be what other posters mentioned; if the school offers the IB Diploma and your son doesn’t do it, then that means that his schedule won’t be the most rigorous possible; similar to what would happen if a school offered [all the AP courses](AP Courses and Exams – AP Students | College Board) and your son only took 3 of them. I doubt it would be some kind of huge problem for most colleges though.
The usual IB-related threads around these forums indicate that IB courses have a very high workload compared to other high school courses (including AP courses). However, looking at AP and IB credit and placement listings at various colleges indicates that IB (generally HL only, except perhaps in foreign languages) scores tend not to give significantly more advanced placement than AP scores do.
Note that some high schools with IB have only a limited number of HL courses. So while IB claims to make for a “well rounded” education, the more advanced students in some subjects may find it particularly lacking if HL courses in their best and favorite subjects are not offered.
Thanks for the responses everyone. My S doesn’t want to do the diploma because he hates writing, History, foreign language, thinks TOK is a waste of his time, and does not think he can commit to 150 hours of community service due to his piano and interest in the math Olympiad. If he loads up on IB Biology HL, Chem HL, English HL, Math HL and maybe Music HL, would that be enough to offset not getting the diploma?
Another wierd thing is, since they can’t even take those HL exams until May of senior year, doesn’t that put them at a disadvantage in college app since they also don’t have AP scores to report?
My S is interested in medicine, does he need IB Physics HL? That seems like a heavy load to do all those classes in 11 and 12th grade.
I’ve heard that the only people from his school that gets into the Ivies or Stanford are the kids who do IB Diploma, which is only around 10% of kids. I’m wondering if we might be better off transferring him to a school that offers AP.
My daughter thought History was a waste of time too. So she did HL Math, HL Chemistry, HL Physics, SL Business, SL English, and German Ab Inition (we were living in Germany at the time). She did the diploma.
She ended up at SUNY Binghmaton and had enough credits from IB ( and a summer class or two) to graduate 1.5 years early. She used the money we would have spent for senior year for a Masters Degree.
There is no disadvantage regarding tests…colleges don’t really use AP or IB tests for admission in the USA. They do note if you are taking AP classes/IB classes so they know that your GPA is in the context of difficult classes.
If he wants to take 4-5 HL classes, why not take 3 HL (which in the norm) and then spend the other effort on the other parts?
You can always do the service over the summer. My DD’s school had a service week where they went to Romania to an orphanage to do service.
If your kid hasn’t got enough hours of community service to address the CAS requirements (which are creativity, action AND service, not just service) I think that is a bit of an issue. If he is aimed at medicine especially, that should be a given and already established.
Was going to clarify, but alfonsia beat me to it – 150 CAS hours means 25 hours each of creativity, action and service in junior year (total of 75 hours) and then again 25 hours in each area in senior year (another 75 hours). My IB diploma student completed his creativity and action hours within about 6 weeks because of his already existing ECs, not a burden.
I suppose it depends how TOK is taught elsewhere, but my kid enjoys talking about the ideas, and there is very little extra writing outside of class (except for the Extended Essay). And the Extended Essay could be in a scientific area, so could easily align with your student’s interests.
In our high school, only IB diploma students get the “most rigorous curriculum available” check mark on their guidance counselor’s recommendation, and that is what the applicant to top schools wants. Find out how it works at your school; depending on the course offerings in your high school, you could make the case to your guidance counselor that, by taking dual enrollment or other advanced coursework but not being a full Diploma candidate, your student still meets that “most rigorous curriculum” criteria. Could be worth a shot.
Finally, yes, colleges know that HL exams are not given until May, and not scored until the summer. It is not a disadvantage, especially since your high school only offers IB and not AP. Students do self-study for AP exams, coming from IB courses, particularly in Bio and Physics, at our school. If your student feels that showing AP mastery matters, he could consider self-studying for certain APs.
How time consuming its it to self study for AP in say Calc AB, Biology, Chem, English and Physics? Do the IB HL courses help with the AP prep after the first year, I.e for him to take these AP tests in May of Junior year? Do the Ivies and Stanford give credits for AP if you just sit for the exams? Do they give credits for IB?
See if he can find a nearby high school where he can take the AP Biology, AP Chemistry, AP BC Calculus, and AP English Language tests. There’s enough overlap between the AP and IB curricula in these subjects that he’s likely to do well on those tests, and it’s easier to get college credit for APs than IBs.
A while back (8 years now!) my daughter completed an IB diploma program. She got a total of zero college credits for her IB scores. Either the college didn’t give credit for the exams she took, or she didn’t score high enough. But she also took 8 AP tests, about half of them based on IB courses, and got 30 credits as a result.
@JoanneB I’m an IB student. I can’t answer your question on how AP compares to IB as I don’t go to an American high school. But I can give you some insight on the IB diploma program.
You don’t need to take history to get an IB diploma as there are tons of other group 3 subjects you can choose from (economics, business, geography, psychology, philosophy etc) - if your son’s school only offers/requires history and he doesn’t enjoy it, I wouldn’t push him to take the IB diploma. History is by far the hardest group 3 subject the IBO offers; you need to be interested in the class to a decent chance of doing well, trust me. I despise writing (to be specific, English literature) too but I’ve enjoyed my time in the IB program, thus far. If he’s a strong writer and can bare it then he should consider doing IB as all the writing isn’t that bad. I was initially off-put by all the writing required myself but I am so glad I choose to IB. He’ll definitely benefit from it in the long run!
CAS - you need to get a minimum of 150 hours of creativity, action and service (50 of each, approximately). Do note that we’re no longer assessed on meeting the minimum hour requirements. Now you need to do a project (minimum 15-20 hours, each) for each learning, so a minimum of 8 projects. Piano counts for creativity so it could potentially be one of his projects. I don’t think math Olympiad would count for CAS but don’t take my word for it, ask the school’s CAS coordinator*. Trust me when I say it’s really easy to pass CAS. I’m almost done and only do 5-8 hours of CAS per week. He’ll have 18 months (PLENTY of time to be done) to complete CAS. I don’t think CAS should be one of his concerns.
TOK - it definitely isn’t a waste of time, IMO! It’s such an interesting class. The fact that someone like me enjoys it says a lot. But I will say that how much you enjoy TOK is very much dependent on your teacher. Tons of my friends detest the class (they’re in a diff. class) but everyone in my class loves it because our teacher is awesome and makes it the lessons interesting. Before he disregards the class entirely, tell him to ask around his school about what TOK teachers are like.
Not having IB scores when applying to university will not be a disadvantage. Tons of IB students get into college every year. Colleges will assess him using his school grades (GPA).
Level of difficulty - I personally am not finding it hard. If your son has good time management skills, he’ll be absolutely fine. The one qualm most people have about the IB diploma is the really high workload. The key to success in IB is to constantly keep on top of your work (you are scre*d if your work starts to pile up!) You don’t need to be super smart to do well. In fact, the students that are organised and have good time management skills almost always end up doing better than the smarter, less organised students. And of course, you need to be an all rounder and be able to keep on top of tons of stuff at once. If you don’t think you’re son possesses many of these characteristics then he probably is better off doing IB certificates.
That is a really heavy course load. HL maths is reputed to be the hardest IB subject that is offered. Chemistry HL is also pretty darn difficult. Biology HL is easy if you’re good at memorizing (I take it). Can’t comment on English or Music HL as I don’t know anyone who takes them. If he’s planning on taking 5 HL subjects (BTW that is going to be super difficult to handle), why doesn’t he just do the full diploma? He wouldn’t be able to take 2 sciences and an arts subject but other than that his workload as a diploma student would probably not be any higher than that of a student who is taking 5 HL subjects!!
**I go to an IB only (international) school and any student that doesn’t take the IB diploma isn’t taking the most rigorous course load. Our guidance counselor said the only way to get the ‘‘most rigorous course load’’ box ticked off for college is if we take the IB diploma.
@pink997 U.S. schools that offer IB programs have to offer them in a way that fulfills state and local high school graduation requirements as well as IB diploma requirements.
Thus, U.S. IB schools may have to restrict their students’ choices of courses. At the U.S. IB school my daughter attended, everyone had to take English and History as two of their HL subjects because those courses also fulfilled state graduation requirements. This limited their academic options rather severely.
Credit for IB scores depends on the school, though the most selective schools tend to only give credit for sufficiently high scores on HL exams only, not SL. The top score on IB is a 7, and some schools only give college credit for 6s and 7s, whereas a few give credit for 5s as well, depends entirely on the school. As a parent, I am baffled why schools don’t give credit for SLs as that seems most analogous to APs, as they are one year long courses.
We know lots of students who self study for science AP exams after taking 1 year of IB science, and do well enough to get AP credit. Selective schools that we researched give credit for the AP test scores, they could care less whether you actually sat in the class all year or not.
Consider why a student wants AP credit – is it to place out of intro level courses in college? From what we hear, for STEM types, many schools want their freshman starting in their own entry level courses rather than jumping ahead and perhaps not being ready. Some schools no longer take AP credit at all (Dartmouth) for college credit.
You can register individually for AP exams through the College Board, you do not need to do it through your school. If your school is not a location where those exams are offered, you can arrange to take them at another site.
History in my kid’s US school is similar, while he doesn’t have to take HL history, he does have to do jr and sr yr history anyway, be it SL and then AP (hons, whatever), or HL so many kids just suck it up and take the history HL. So he for e.g. took AP bio as a soph, HL chem, physics, history and english as a jr/ sr, with SL math and spanish finished in jr year giving time for BC calc, AP stats as a sr. This is the benefit of the AP IB school mix. The kids sit the crossover APs too like history (2), chem, lang/lit. So when you read about IB outside of the USA it IS important to note how your school structures the courses and what they may or may not be able to offer at HL. .