I used to have bagels sent to out of town friends from Bagel Oasis in Queens. They are amazing. H and I still drive in sometimes to treat ourselves to them.
As for the actual post topic - all of my kids made the absence of heavy duty sports an absolute must on their college lists. They could deal with most sports by ignoring them, but a football team pretty took a school out of serious contention. Fortunately, when your affordability list is basically SUNY, it was easy enough to find them schools. Techson17 refused to apply to Penn State even though numerous people suggested it because of the Sandusky scandal.
@Muad_dib I respectfully disagree with your generalization. My child is at a large D1 school and she has endless academic opportunities- more than we could ever imagine. She commented to me recently that her opportunities are so plentiful that she often pinches herself because she thinks she is dreaming. I have said this before- it’s hard to understand how athletics pulls the community together until you experience it for yourself.
I won’t argue with your point in the general sense, mostly because it is too broad to respond to. However, I will note that for Big Time Collegiate Athletics, it is very unlikely that resources are being funneled from education to fund sports. Many Athletic departments operate entirely on a distinct budget, and are likely to be net revenue producers. In fact, the schools more likely to see athletics as a financial drain are the smaller ones, who view athletics as one component of student health and well being. Really, my caution is to be careful to paint with so broad a brush, I suppose.
Our daughter was looking at many LAC in the Northeast, and she seriously considered three schools in the Patriot League, which is Div 1. During our visits, and accepted student day programs, there was much talk about school spirit and rivalries, but it was obvious that student interest in the teams was limited. She ended up going to the University of Michigan, and she is very happy with her choice. Michigan is one of a dozen or so schools that has the complete package…elite academics, a great college town, and a top tier college sports culture. Our family enjoys college sports, and there is significant value to having a team to root for on football Saturdays, and during the college basketball season.
In response to @muad_dip, at Michigan, the athletic program is self funding…not a penny is “funneled into athletic programs at the expense of academics”. The reality is the football team and other revenue sports generate many millions of dollars for the benefit of the University.
@dtrain1027 Michigan is the one most expensive state schools for out of state students. $59,784 for out of state tuition/room and board. And I’m pretty sure very little is given in aid for OOS students. For that money, I’d rather pay full price at a smaller school where the undergrads get more attention. That being said, there’s no place like the Big House for a football game!
“The University of Chicago had the right idea in 1939 when they dropped big time football to better pursue its academic vision.”
The combination of higher ed + big dollar sports/entertainment business certainly is bizarre and filled with lots of problems. But it is a uniquely American tradition that has been going on for over 125 years. At its best, college sports are the “front porch” of the university – the part of the structure that is visibly out front and a place where people (students, parents, alumni, community) can connect with the school.
Interestingly, Chicago was the original football factory – totally corrupt but highly successful. I understand why Chicago got out of that business and it is a great school, but it is different to go from the “Monsters of the Midway” to the “place where fun goes to die.” Imagine how different Chicago would be today if it had decided to stay in the Big 10 (like Northwestern and Michigan did).
@homerdog, this thread is not about cost. I agree Michigan is expensive for OOS students. That is because there are many OOS families willing to pay private school level tuition. Same with UVa. LACs are great in their own way, but to compare Michigan or UVa or Cal Berkeley to a small LAC (e.g., Colgate, Richmond, Colby) is pointless. They are very different, and one is not better than the other. As a consumer, you can choose which you prefer. That said, the sports culture at schools like Michigan adds a special element to the undergraduate experience, and creates a lifelong connection to the school.
@dtrain1027 I get it. To each his own, of course. The OP didn’t mention if he has cost constraints and I just wanted to make the point that, in most cases including Michigan, going to an OOS school with stellar academics and big sports is expensive.
To build on what @northwesty said, football was a big contributor to the rise of the U of C in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
It’s arguable that the U of C would not have gained the prominence that it did and endowment that it did without football
More recently, I believe that Duke and ND would not have seen the rise in the rankings and growth in endowment that they have seen in recent decades if it wasn’t for their dominance in basketball and football, respectively.
For that matter, it’s possible that some of the Ivies would be more like Colgate or JHU now if it wasn’t for sports (note that the Ivy League is a sports league, which many people seem to forget).
“The OP didn’t mention if he has cost constraints and I just wanted to make the point that, in most cases including Michigan, going to an OOS school with stellar academics and big sports is expensive.”
It all depends. You can go to UVA (Jefferson Scholar) or UNC (Morehead Scholar) for free if you get one of those VERY competitive scholarships. Lots of OOS kids these days are flocking to Alabama or Ole Miss or Oklahoma at big tuition discounts and attending their Honors Colleges.
There’s many many factors that feed into a college decision – cost, academics, admissibility, programs of study, weather, food, location, size, community, greek life, etc. etc. etc. etc. The athletic program is just one more variable that you can put into the search parameters.
“For that matter, it’s possible that some of the Ivies would be more like Colgate or JHU now if it wasn’t for sports (note that the Ivy League is a sports league, which many people seem to forget).”
In their own way, the Ivies and the NESCACs are huge sports schools. While the academic elites are not into big money spectator sports, they devote TONs of resources to their sports programs. The biggest commitment they make is how many of their scarce seats they allocate to athletes in order to field their expansive teams.
Bama has 617 varsity athletes and an enrollment of 28,447. Dartmouth has 903/4,214. Williams has 747/2,070. Very different schools and athletic departments, obviously. But you can argue that Williams is more drunk on sports than Bama is.
Sports+college is pervasive in the U.S. The biggest and most valuable brand in higher ed is The Ivy League. Everyone in the world knows about the Ivies which, as Purple points out, is just an athletic conference.
Would your son consider the University of Wisconsin? It has good football, basketball, and hockey teams, some great academic programs, and a large contingent of students from New York state.
I avoided the big time football schools when I was looking at colleges for myself, but for one of my daughters, it is a key element in her decision. She is going to University of South Carolina, Spurs Up! and all that. We are different people, I know she will thrive there, although at her age, and now, I would rather be curled up with my book!
“Michigan is the one most expensive state schools for out of state students. $59,784 for out of state tuition/room and board. And I’m pretty sure very little is given in aid for OOS students. For that money, I’d rather pay full price at a smaller school where the undergrads get more attention. That being said, there’s no place like the Big House for a football game!”
Michigan has gotten much better about out of state aid recently. And as the parent of a child st Michigan amd another At a top private which has only 20 perecent of uMichs population, I can attest that Michigan gives much smaller schools a run for they’re money in terms of excellent attention to undergrads.
D1 sports and school spirit were huge deciding factors for my D as well. She wouldn’t seriously consider any school without a decent D1 football or basketball team with strong student attendance. There are lots of great D1 schools with strong academics and honors colleges to choose from.
