^^a sitcom in the making…
While not about MT admissions, several years ago, I read The Gatekeepers, which is a fascinating read. The author was granted permission to sit in on the admissions process (behind closed doors) for a year at Wesleyan University, which is a very selective school.
@CollegeDadofTwo They did and then I was told they did not consider Penn State, Florida State, Otterbein, Baldwin Wallace, Oklahoma, OCU, Texas State, etc to be comparable quality schools! CMU is a great school but they have a very high opinion of themselves. Having said that, they did come in at the last minute with a nice grant that made attending possible but even then it would have required quite a bit of student debt to swing it. We just decided graduating as an actor with no debt is better than graduating with $60K + in debt. Not just CMU but the EFC is way out of wack!
Idk who you were talking to at CMU @MTDadandProud (theater dept or general admissions) but if it was admissions, I would agree with assessment that academically none of the schools on your list above are remotely in the same league as CMU. Certainly it is well known that students admitted artistically are not held to the rest of the CMUs academic admission standards. (average ACT score is 31 according to university published info) Artistic comparisons are of course far more subjective. I guess the true value of any product resides in what you are willing to pay for it- and what you hope to get from it. I am sure they had no troubling filling the spot you released
@MTDadandProud Agreed about the EFC being out of wack just in general. How do they come up with this high number??? (not expecting answers here…just venting…I wish I COULD afford what the EFC says I should!)
@toowonderful No trouble at all, I am sure. LOL
Well that’s something I had not given much thought to, that the school may not give you the same aid every year as @MTDadandProud stated about CMU. Yikes
@theaterwork Just read your offers closely. In our experience most were 4 year grants so long as you maintained good grades. Just a few were one year only with re-assessment every year.
@DVCmember - That is the big problem with institutional methodology schools. The way they calculate EFC is a black box that they don’t reveal details on.
@MTDadandProud - I could see the drama department there doing that. The music school told me essentially the same thing, especially with the state schools because as Universities they have much higher acceptance rates and lower acceptance criteria. I called BS in that and said just because the Universities may be like that, the music programs are not as they are just as selective to get into. So they let me submit state school offers as well. They added a little money to get closer, but still came out to more out of pocket.
Don’t assume that because your kid has a 4.0 in HS they will continue with that in college. At CMU they make a point of telling the theatre students that As and even Bs are rare, and that students should remember that a D is passing. Many students we know there said it took a lot of adjusting for their parents to get used to the grades they receive at CMU. At many other schools they also tell the students, and parents, that a C is average and is what most will receive. A grade of A is very rare. This can be problematic for kids that have received academic merit scholarships that require minimum GPAs to maintain the scholarship.
What @Dusing2 says above is SO true. I believe many programs have some letter grade that is symbolic of “yeah, you are doing more or less what we expect from you given what it is you do not know young grasshopper.” I think it’s the professional artists way of saying that the learning never ends and it would be irresponsible to grade you in a way that suggests you already know what it is you need to know.
In Tisch’s MT studio, I think that grade is a “B.” Getting a B+ in studio means you are doing relatively well and it is something to celebrate. The number of students that get anything above a B+ in any given semester you can probably count on one hand and this is in a MT program with 30 - 60 kids in any given year. It makes graduating with honors from NYU very hard even if you get A’s in all of your other classes since studio is half of what factors into your GPA in any given semester.
Some programs have very few courses outside of MT, and the required GPAs can range from 3.5-2.0. Definitely worth considering if merit aid is something you will be depending on.
@Dusing2 I hadn’t thought of that. Will definitely keep gpa in mind with merit scholarships.
Both my D’s experience at NYU in their artistic classes (music, theatre, dance and art) is that if you do all the assignments, meet all the requirements for a class, and get good grades on any academic components, you can get an A.
Grades are not based as much on who the most talented student is, but what effort a student puts in and what individual growth they have shown.
Which means that the “most talented” do not automatically get the highest grades. It also means that students do have some control over their gpa.
My D the studio art major is a senior now. At the end of junior year, the art department had students put together their portfolios and write an artistic statement. Over the summer their portfolios were all reviewed by a committee that included faculty, curators, art critics and gallery owners. Eight people in all. They were given a list of criteria by which to evaluate each student: Documentation quality, Image continuity, Clarity of contents, Quality of works, Quality of strongest work, Quality of weakest work, Quality of statement, Clarity of statement, Statement’s relation to the work, Overall quality of portfolio, and Eligibility for Senior Honors Studio.
Just last week students got feedback. They were given a scaled rank from 1 to 10 that was an average of the above criteria from all of the evaluators. They were also given the evaluator’s comments.
The intention is for students to have an understanding of how others may review their work in the real world. These evaluations and comments are meant to guide students during their senior year to develop their final portfolio and artist statements through a mentorship program that is part of the senior’s curriculum.
The scores for these evaluations and the comments did not necessarily align with a student’s gpa. There were many students who were top in class grades who were shocked to find evaluations in the 6.5 range with comments that pinpointed the weakness of their portfolios. And others who may have been B students who received accolades and 8.5 scores.
The process is harsh, but as long as it includes real guidance and mentorship–I think it’s extremely valuable.
Personally I think this model could be beneficial to MT programs as well. I think it could be a great tool if students created an audition tape, wrote about themselves in terms of how their body of work fits into the theatre world (what roles they see themselves playing, etc), and then got real feedback from anonymous faculty, agents and casting directors. Senior year would then be spent using this input to help make students better performers and better prepared for the real world.
Interesting @uskoolfish . Not how it works in Tisch New Studio anyway. I can’t speak to the other studios. What you describe here is what gets you a B+ in New Studio.
My daughter has a couple of classes right now and next semester that attempt to do this. I agree it is invaluable. The inclusion of feedback from people in the business who do not know the students already is key. It removes favoritism and other factors from the equation. I’m sure there is potential for a lot of eye opening and surprise. May be harsh too. We shall see.
I also believe the students get industry feedback in their master classes with industry professionals. Perhaps not as thorough or detailed as what @uskoolfish describes but the feedback will serve as reality checks long the way.
For CMU Music, they tell students that if you have C’s or worse in your core classes, do not expect to stay around in the program.
I agree that the grading in studio classes at Tisch is challenging and that getting A’s is difficult. That said, it is not too difficult to graduate with honors from NYU/Tisch. I recall a bunch of my D’s friends (including herself) graduating with honors and I just went back to look at the graduation photos to make sure my memory was accurate…they are wearing the gold tassels on their graduation caps.
When my D was in studio, each class not only gave a grade but had a lot of narrative evaluation and evaluation on a continuum for specific criteria.
Btw, my D’s GPA did not figure into her scholarship money while at Tisch. It was the same amount given each year that we knew from the start. Her GPA had to stay over 3.5 if I recall, to stay in a select program (this is not scholarship related) called Tisch Scholars, which no longer exists.
CMU MT parents are told not to expect straight As and not even Bs. @CollegeDadofTwo, by “core classes” do you mean the academic or gen Ed classes? MTs at CMU have very few of those. Only about two or three over the entire 4 years so that would not really have much effect on the GPAs.