<p>I thought I'd revive this thread before I send this link to S. He was too busy during the year to read it, so I was saving it for this summer.</p>
<p>Has anyone visited programs before they applied? He will be in the area of some of his top choices this summer and it will be convenient to visit then. How do you "visit" a PhD program? It's not like you go on the tour and try the food. Any advice would be helpful.</p>
<p>If you didn't, please also read through the Grad School forum. I don't think there's currently a math PhD thread, but dig up the one for biosciences to see what kind of scores and experience got kids into programs.</p>
<p>Not too important but he's always welcome to visit the campuses. But most professors are generally not around the summer. He's better off waiting until the fall semester when they're on campus. Definitely search through grad school threads, we've had questions like these pop up.</p>
<p>Just wanted to comment that my cousin got a PhD in some kind of statistical math - she now works for a company that is contracted by many different industries and she works in the division that has a contract with some major fashion houses to predict fashion trends - she can talk for ages about the mathematical models they use for this and that - all way above my head. She does very well and has great clothes, too!</p>
<p>
[quote]
ANOTHER APPROACH which can happen in parallel (sneaky, but works...) is to study conference/symposia literature for professors in the same research areas. Then contact them to discuss the papers, and have that lead to a discussion of other research at the school. And at some point have that lead into your interest in helping with that research...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is NOT sneaky . . . this, along with journal articles, is the way many students find graduate school mentors (or find people to do undergraduate research with). Reading current literature is a great way to get a feel for the field, where it's heading, as well as the big name players (or up and comers).</p>
<p>cookiemom, </p>
<p>It is common in the biological sciences to invite applicants to interview events. These things are structured to be two way, where the U is selling the kid on the program at the same time that they interview them. </p>
<p>Don't know if this is common in math, even if not, I would hold off visits until I had some indication of acceptance. After all, grad school is rather unlike undergrad, where social factors and fit should predominate. Fit still matters for grad school, of course, but in a much more narrow sense IMHO.</p>
<p>He knows he should really narrow down a research area and look for faculty research interests, but he's interested in a number of things. I think the idea of reading journal articles that are of interest to you, and then contacting the researchers a helpful idea. It's also a good way of pinpointing where things are being done that interest you.</p>
<p>It seems that "geographic location" and in particular the availability of young single women in the geographic location is also a factor...</p>
<p>
[quote]
It seems that "geographic location" and in particular the availability of young single women in the geographic location is also a factor.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>He sounds like a healthy and well balanced young man to me. :) I'm just replying here to wish him well and to thank you for your helpful advice to young people applying to undergraduate programs in math. Alas, my real life schedule intervened, so I wasn't able to take my son anywhere near Princeton on my recent trip out of town, but I'll take to heart your advice and meanwhile be cheering on your son.</p>
<p>I didn't know there was a graduate school forum here. Have to look around for that.</p>
<p>Anyway, I just went through the application process for graduate school (psychology and public health -- I'm headed to Columbia). I would say the most important thing is for him to really buckle down some research interests. Potential advisers want to know that and graduate schools want to see that he is serious about graduate school, and grad school = research. You don't have to have long years of extensive research -- I'm going to my Ph.D program straight out of undergrad, with 3 years of research assistantships and one REU over a summer -- but you must demonstrate an interest and at least a tentative area of research. Especially in mathematics, where a lot of times funding is dependent upon an adviser willing to take him into a lab.</p>
<p>I don't recommend visiting programs before applying. It's actually kind of pointless. The best way to contact faculty beforehand is to look at journal articles that your S really enjoyed and contact those faculty authors, or to ask his favorite professors about their connections and recommendations. Then just take the plunge and e-mail them. Most professors respond really well to well-thought out questions about their research (although they generally don't know anything about their programs, which is funny to me). Also see if some schools have lists of current graduate students and e-mail them. They can give you the inside scoop on the program and professors and are usually very friendly and helpful.</p>
<p>Usually he will have the chance to visit the schools after he's been admitted, or for an interview. Many programs have an Admitted Students' Weekend. Always ask if the program can or will foot the bill. If they can't, ask if they can arrange for him to stay with a current student and then ask your S's home department if THEY can foot the bill. When I wanted to visit my top choice, my research fellowship paid for my airfare and gave me a food allowance, and my graduate program arranged for me to stay with some current students. It had the double benefit of being free and allowing me to mingle with some current students and get their perspective on the program.</p>
<p>Interviews typically happen in February and March, after applications are already submitted and have been reviewed. Not all programs do interviews. If they do, they are usually at the program's expense. Like I said, if the program wants your S to come in for an interview but does not want to foot the bill a) be wary of that school and b) turn to other sources before assuming you have to pay out of pocket. Many schools have travel funds available for their undergrads to visit graduate schools.</p>
<p>That "good students from good schools don't do well on the GRE" thing is a myth. Good students who did well on the SAT generally tend to do well on the GRE since it is essentially a grown-up's SAT. Studying for the GRE is a lot like studying for the SAT. Buy a prep book (may I recommend Barron's and Kaplan's books, although Kaplan's practice tests are the pits) and download the PowerPREP software from the GRE website, which has practice questions and two practice tests. The practice tests on PowerPREP are very good approximations of your eventual scores. I studied for about a month before the GRE and I scored very high. (Going into the mathematics program, he should most likely score 750+ on the quantitative section; I scored around this and that was still only the 82nd percentile).</p>
<p>There is also a GRE subject test in mathematics and he should confirm ahead of time whether his programs want him to take it. The subject tests are on paper and pencil (unlike the GRE general test) and are only offered three times an academic year. Next year, they are offered on August 29 and November 8 (the April test date will, of course, be too late).</p>
<p>Just wondering, how much funding would one need for a PhD in math?</p>
<p>Can someone excel in a PhD if they are not the most brilliant student through sheer work? Because I generally have worked really hard to get good at math like by doing heaps of example questions etc. I'm in high school and about to take BC Calc in soph year and I think I work really hard on my math, will I be able to succeed even if I'm not the greatest? I want to end up on Wall Street, lol and I'm considering a PhD for the quantitative finance positions. </p>
<p>So basically if you're a hard worker can you do well in PhD math and how much funding do you need for your PhD? Thanks</p>
<p>Just bumping it up unashamedly...</p>
<p>tokenadult - Sorry you didn't get to Princeton, but if you do ever get a chance you and your S have a personal tour guide. Thanks for the good wishes. He's a little nervous about the whole process, but I'm sure it will all work out. He absolutely hates filling out applications.</p>
<p>juillet - Thanks for all the great advice. I still don't see how you can narrow your list without visiting the school and talking to the professors in person. How many schools did you apply to and how did you narrow your list? My S has about 10 schools on his list right now.</p>
<p>shore - Come back in five years and we'll talk.</p>
<p>cookiemom,</p>
<p>There are a lot of reasons why applicants don't visit in advance, before acceptance/invitation. One is cost. Another is that grad school has nothing in common with undergrad (OK, full disclosure: they both take place on college campuses, although even that is questionable in some disciplines like anthro. :) ) so environment, culture and such are approached differently (note choice of words). In fact, kids that are serious about research careers look first and foremost at highly regarded programs and star faculty under which they might work. These kids learn about various programs from undergrad mentors and sometimes can meet prospective grad advisors at regional and national meetings or when these folks give seminars on their undergrad campus. </p>
<p>Further, as juillet suggested, a lot can be learned by email, contacting prospective advisors to find out more about willingness to take on a new grad student. </p>
<p>To put it another way, one either narrows the list in advance through advice from advisors, emails and meetings, or one just applies to a broad list and then evaluates the responses. Most often, applicants do a combination of both, unless they've received strong hints that a top choice is pretty likely. (yes, this happens frequently!). </p>
<p>Although much of the grad student support comes from NSF grants, there can still be local differences, often having to do with TAships, promises of research opportunities and such. The details vary widely by field and institution, so it is hard to generalize.</p>
<p>Since shore asked, the better grad programs will pay your tuition and fees, health insurance and provide you with a living stipend of $20,000 - $30,000 per year. Maybe others can correct/update/refine these figures. Many grad students apply for and win portable fellowships in addition to or instead of institutional support. Internationals have a few more hoops to go through and less opportunity on the funding side since some fund sources are restricted to US citizens. So an international student is more likely to be dependent on home country support and outside fellowships.</p>
<p>The key though is that students with star potential will be competed for. More mediocre students may find an acceptance at a second tier school with no support at all. So you get an idea where you stand by what kind of admissions offers you get. That's one reason why so many grad students delay starting grad school - to upgrade their credentials.</p>
<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I am an itinerant lurker here....my baby was a senior in college this past academic year and applied to theoretical math programs last fall. Will be attending one of the big name programs come fall. So I thought i would share info...</p>
<p>COOKIEMOM first wrote:</p>
<p>" Everyone on this site was very helpful when S was applying to college as a math major. Now S is a junior in college and will be applying to PhD programs next year. I know he will be getting help with the process from his advisors at school"</p>
<p>ME: They should be able to guide him through the entire process....</p>
<p>"and I've encouraged him to talk to grad students. He's not sure of his research interest at this time because he still interested in many topics. He's doing two research projects this semester and will be doing a senior thesis next year which will help him to more clearly define his interests."</p>
<p>ME: Despite what others have written, it is not unusual to apply to math grad school without a narrowly defined focus area of interest.</p>
<p>"My questions have to do with the application and selection process. Should he begin to visit programs before he applies and talk to faculty?"</p>
<p>ME: This is not required and not usually done, although departments are open to it. </p>
<p>" How competitive are these programs and what do they look for in an applicant?"</p>
<p>ME: Very competitive--the best programs draw INTERNATIONALLY, not just from US schools.</p>
<p>They look for talent, passion, commitment....what you want to show on the app are very, very good math grades in good math courses (preferably some grad level), glowing reqs from working mathematicians, research interest and/or experience. Helpful would be actual research experience/publications, high Putnam scores or similar activity, awards from third parties (such as Goldwater), internal awards (phi beta, department honors, etc.), </p>
<p>" At what stage in the process do the formal interviews occur?"</p>
<p>ME: No interviews....programs will do admitted student programs in the spring, where the prospies get to interview the faculty and grad students.</p>
<p>" Are they at the candidate's expense?" ME: No, departments pay for the admitted student stuff.</p>
<p>" We've both hear that good students from good schools tend to not do well on the GRE's. What should he be doing to prepare?"</p>
<p>ME: Never heard that. GREs are gatekeepers--need to do well but they won't get you in. (although I have heard that some schools have cutoffs for the verbal side of general GRE for foreign students.</p>
<p>COOKIEMOM also wrote:
"I know there were a lot of math parents around these boards when S was applying to college and I'm wondering if any of you have kids who are also beginning this process. I want to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I'm overwhelmed by all of the great responses - lots of helpful info.</p>
<p>To answer some questions, yes he is is planning to apply to incredibly competitive theoretical math programs. That's why he has to be on top of his game with all of the important components. He's in good shape with his coursework and grades. I got the information that Harvard students don't do well on the GRE's from the Harvard Math department website. When I told my S he said, "Yeah, I've heard the same about Princeton students." He's planning on taking the general GRE in this summer and take the math subject test in the fall. I think the reason the good math students don't do well on these tests is because the subject matter is all stuff they were studying in high school. I'm sure he can do well if he brushes up over the summer."</p>
<p>ME: Maybe we are quibbling about doing well here.....I would expect that any successful applicant to either of these two programs would have high GRE score in both general math and the subject test...maybe at or above the 85th percentile.</p>
<p>my kid did have to do some GRE review since, as you note, the tests cover stuff many of these kids haven't seen for years.</p>
<p>COOKIEMOM continued: "The thing I'm most concerned about is that he will be competing with applicants who will probably have more extensive research experience. He is working on two projects now, will be doing a senior thesis, and is applying for REU's for this summer. He is not one of those people who just studies and does research all the time."</p>
<p>ME: That is sufficient research to apply to the top programs. You are right, some candidates will have more experience but not all.</p>
<p>" He's a varsity athlete in a sport with a year round training schedule. While this kind of well roundedness looks great on an undergraduate application I don't think PhD math programs are going to care about his athletic accomplishments. "</p>
<p>ME: Correct. However, I think most mathematicians have interests in addition to math so it should not be a negative. Certainly it shows discipline, motivation and ability to work hard, which are seen as positives for grad programs.</p>
<p>COOKIEMOM continued: " I thought I'd revive this thread before I send this link to S. He was too busy during the year to read it, so I was saving it for this summer.</p>
<p>Has anyone visited programs before they applied? He will be in the area of some of his top choices this summer and it will be convenient to visit then. How do you "visit" a PhD program? It's not like you go on the tour and try the food. Any advice would be helpful. "</p>
<p>ME:
Actually he should do the tour and try the food. If its awful he may not want to apply--he will, after all, be there four or so years if he attends.</p>
<p>As to the department itself--contact the head of grad program and explain the situation. Ask to talk to faculty and grad students who are around for the summer (many will be).</p>
<p>My baaby visited five department post acceptance--all excellent, highly ranked, etc. Found that each dept. had a different atmosphere, different personality. Fit is important and the only way to check on it is to visit--although typically this is done after acceptance.</p>
<p>COOKIEMOM continued " He knows he should really narrow down a research area and look for faculty research interests, but he's interested in a number of things. I think the idea of reading journal articles that are of interest to you, and then contacting the researchers a helpful idea. It's also a good way of pinpointing where things are being done that interest you."</p>
<p>ME: Yup.</p>
<p>"It seems that "geographic location" and in particular the availability of young single women in the geographic location is also a factor... "</p>
<p>ME: Well, he does have to live there. I know of one math grad student at one of the top tier programs who is unhappy about the sex ratio in his program as he feels it deters him from meeting women... so your son is not unique.</p>
<p>COOKIEMOM continued " Thanks for all the great advice. I still don't see how you can narrow your list without visiting the school and talking to the professors in person. How many schools did you apply to and how did you narrow your list? My S has about 10 schools on his list right now. "</p>
<p>ME: The narrowing comes later, after acceptance. Can also be done by e mail inadvance, though, if you are so inclined. Ten is reasonable. Mine applied to six; I think most apply to 5 to 10 programs. Make sure at least one is a safety school.</p>
<p>NEWMASSDAD wrote: Since shore asked, the better grad programs will pay your tuition and fees, health insurance and provide you with a living stipend of $20,000 - $30,000 per year. Maybe others can correct/update/refine these figures. Many grad students apply for and win portable fellowships in addition to or instead of institutional support. Internationals have a few more hoops to go through and less opportunity on the funding side since some fund sources are restricted to US citizens. So an international student is more likely to be dependent on home country support and outside fellowships.</p>
<p>The key though is that students with star potential will be competed for. More mediocre students may find an acceptance at a second tier school with no support at all.</p>
<hr>
<p>Correct for math, although my baby was advised that no one goes to math grad school without substantial support--if you don't get support offers, this is a clear signal that you don't belong there.</p>
<p>At any rate, all the major math program offer substantial support.</p>
<p>Haven't read all the posts but here is my 2cents:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Math PhD are supported financially in full because all such graduate departments use TAs.</p></li>
<li><p>There are national and international fellowships that are prestigeous for the star students. Having one of those means that you don't have to be a TA, which is a real chore. </p></li>
<li><p>There is a world of difference between pure math versus applied/practical math. While one may not know which research area to pursue, most applicants know where they fall. </p></li>
<li><p>I would not visit before invitation from schools. More useful will be to use the money to send him to a real math conference. He can talk to researchers there and hopefully see what it is really like to be doing graduate level math research in specific areas. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Best wishes.</p>
<p>Department</a> of Mathematics at MIT | Graduate Study : Financial Aid</p>
<p>Padad, not all the math programs are fully funded via TA or RA positions. My understanding is that MIT's math Ph.D. program does not 100% fund all of its students (which isn't to say some aren't 100% funded for tuition plus heath plus a stipend, but simply that according to that site, some aren't even 50% funded and those students don't qualify for health insurance coverage on the university's tab either). I suspect some other doctoral programs also don't fully finance all students, and for master's programs, I would expect the funding to be less common than for the doctoral programs.</p>
<p>Don't know if this has been resolved yet, but GRE is NOT important to math graduate schools. Hell, Chicago, a top 5 school, doesn't even require it. It's going to boil down to research, recommendations and, to a lesser extent, grades.</p>
<p>Mini wrote: I explained it to my d. as the equivalent of applying for a 5-year/$300,000 job (tuition plus fellowship funding plus extras), and the chance to move up in one's career.</p>
<p>That is an interesting way to look at it, though I don't think you want the person feeling they are locked into the position (no doubt the university would like the person to feel that way, but I don't think it's a good thing for anyone to ever feel <em>locked</em> into a position unless they truly are, like when one signs up for military service), and naturally, no graduate student signs anything (far as I know) promising to stay on for X years, nor does the graduate program promise funding for more than one year at a time (it's always contingent upon progressing toward the degree up to the university's standards, far as I have heard). The price also obviously varies (for our son, the package is over $80K/year and that doesn't even included things like their ordering things like laptops, desktop monitors, special keyboards, and lots of other equipment at his request; his program is also for 6 years with many taking more than six years and still being fully funded despite the extra years over that the program expects in writing). And the price will go up every year as the stipend goes up every year (or has so far) as does the tuition credit and health insurance cost the university pays. Plus, as a student progresses in research and publications, I am guessing the university sends the student on more trips to present papers, do research, whatever and that is yet more money that goes up as the years go by. The only things I am somewhat surprised the universities don't give the students is some kind of retirement program (not even to contribute to it so much as to have one in place for students to contribute to in addition to the Roth IRA, as the stipend is large enough to allow for that kind of saving and the sooner you start saving for retirement, the better) and dental care (some do, mind you, but our son's doesn't, and he is going to need his wisdom teeth removed next year, so is lucky to still be under 18 and covered by his father's company's dental insurance and will just have to come back to our state next summer to have it done; I'm not sure if my husband's insurance will cover our son once he turns 18, but maybe they will if he is still a full-time student, though being that he hasn't been a dependent of ours since he was 14, I sort of doubt it). But overall, I am impressed with how generous many Ph.D. programs are with their financing. I only wish top law schools and MBA programs were the same.</p>
<p>Re post 58: Double check your information regarding Chicago.</p>
<p>Required Materials
The Graduate Admissions Committee will not be able to formally consider your application until all of the materials listed below have been received.</p>
<pre><code>* Application for admission with all questions answered
* Original transcripts and official translations from all institutions attended
*** General GRE Score
* Mathematics Subject GRE Score**
* Three letters of recommendation
* TOEFL or IELTS scores (international applicants only) *
* $55 nonrefundable application fee
</code></pre>