Are acceptance odds better applying ED than RD?

<p>My point, again, is that there is a FIXED number of slots reserved for ED. The schools do not just wait around to see how many people apply ED, go through the apps and admit everyone they like, and then leave the balance for RD. They know before the admission season starts roughly how many slots will be filled by ED. </p>

<p>It is in the school’s interest to encourage as many students to apply ED as possible, and then pick the best applicants (with “hook” being part of “best”) from that pool. </p>

<p>So lets say there are 200 ED slots to be filled. If only 300 students apply, that’s not good for the school – but yes, “chances” for the weakest half would be improved immensely. If 500 students apply for those 200 slots, then the pool becomes more selective. If by some fortuitous circumstance 1,000 students apply, the school would be delighted - they’d snag the hooked applicants and the BEST of the rest, and they’d probably defer many students over to the RD pool. </p>

<p>The COLLEGE is always going to act in its own interest. The degree of selectivity of the ED pool will depend entirely on the overall number of applicants. </p>

<p>As to the SAT scores – there are at least 2 sittings for the SAT after the ED deadlines, and colleges report the best scores on the data sheet. You can’t compare a May 11th grade score on the same metric as a November 12th grade score, and you can’t look at scores as the single metric for admissions. Grades are particularly important for unhooked ED applicants – colleges routinely defer if there is any concern in that area. Even if you are looking at GPA + SAT together you have incomplete information, but at least you would then have better data than pulling out a single data point in isolation.</p>

<p>From data posted earlier on this thread, it appears that the test scores of **enrolled<a href=“as%20opposed%20to” title=“admitted”>/b</a> students during the RD round are in about the same score range as the ED admits. Colleges know roughly the score range that they are aiming for; I believe the book The Gatekeepers describes the ad com getting regular statistical updates throughout the process as to how the numbers were shaping up along the way. They probably do aim for a higher range in RD round, simply because they know that many admitted students will not enroll and that the enrolled score range will tend to be lower than the admitted range. I’m sure they’ve got it all figured out mathematically. But because we are looking at a median range and not an average, and because many more students are accepted in the RD round than the ED round, that does not translate into reduced “chance” of admission on an <em>individual</em> basis. </p>

<p>In other words, of the hypothetical 200 ED slots I mentioned above, lets assume that half have SAT scores of under 600 (on one test). That’s 100 below-600 scorers admitted to Hypothetical U, and median score of 600. Now lets assume that the school will admit 800 students in the RD round (to fill 300 additional spots, with an anticipated 37.5% yield). In this group, one third of the students have scores under 600, another third have scores between 600-700, and a third have scores over 700. Assuming even distribution of scores in the middle group, the median score of admitted students has moved up to 650. But, many MORE low-scorers have been admitted RD. (1/3 of 800 admitted students = 267).</p>

<p>IF yield on those low scorers is the same as yield for the high scorers, then 100 students with scores below 600 from the RD pool can be expected to enroll, matching the number of ED admits. But the data suggests that the overall score range is lower for enrolled RD students than admitted, so it is more likely that the number of RD admitted students with scores below 600 who do enroll actually is higher than the ED students who enroll - in other words, that for any enrolled student you meet who has a below 600 score, it is more likely than not that the student came from the RD pool.</p>

<p>“The COLLEGE is always going to act in its own interest.”</p>

<p>Absolutely, but there seems to be some suggestion that the bottom line own interest is USNWR rank. I think it’s more to perpetuate themselves (the ultimate requirement), to continue their mission (whatever they define it to be), and to constantly improve (whatever they define that to be). Some magazine editors can translate that to rank if they want.</p>

<p>Maybe this is so obvious that no one says it.</p>

<p>bluebayou: lol, no, not a state’s secret…but given that there were only about 50 parents there, don’t really want to reveal my “secret CC identity”…haha…</p>

<p>and for what it’s worth, yes, these are not high yield schools…but these were NOT junior admissions people either…</p>

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<p>Indeed, it is a given that “The COLLEGE is always going to act in its own interest.” It is also a given that any competitive college will maintain a keen eye on its rankings and image. There is scholarly research available on the importance of the USNews rankings. </p>

<p>However, why is this important in a discussion about the odds of acceptance under ED and RD. At best, for USNEWS, the importance of ED or EA is trivial, especially when compared to the multiple possibilities that are given to “maximize” their rankings via legitimate and not-so-legitimate devices and tricks.</p>

<p>Admission is not a random process, therefore looking at “odds” is not very useful. The applications are still evaluated on factors that essentially leave each applicant “competing” among a much smaller pool of whatever other students have similar characteristics that the college desires, whether it is bassoon-playing or baseball-pitching or a desire to study classics. But even that is not an actual competitive analysis, because the students with similar qualities are not all evaluated in a single batch – so it probably is much more of an ad hoc process. </p>

<p>Students in the RD round often have had more time to polish their essays and an opportunity retake tests to boost scores, etc. So if ED theoretically is the equivalent of a 100 pt score boost – then what would you say about the “chances” of a student who applies ED with a score of 2150 vs. a student who started out with 2150, but improves their SAT to 2300 at the November sitting?</p>

<p>“However, why is this important in a discussion about the odds of acceptance under ED and RD.”</p>

<p>Wish I knew; I’m certainly not a fan of one-size-fits-none rankings. USNWR and rankings have been mentioned repeatedly in this thread (count who mentioned USNWR the most :wink: ).</p>

<p>“so it probably is much more of an ad hoc process”</p>

<p>Hmmm. Adcoms trying to find the facts about applicants? I suppose, but sometimes it feels like opinions matter more.</p>

<p>Here’s a new wrinkle. My son applied ED to an Ivy where he is a legacy. His grades, boards, activities are all within range for acceptance. He was deferred. When his guidance counselor called to talk about why he was deferred and how he might strengthen his application, the adrep said that they were overwhelmed with legacy admits and, if all were accepted, the college could fill 2/3 of their class with legacy children. She implied that legacy was not necessarily an advantage and, in some cases, could be a detriment since the college could obviously not take anywhere near the number of legacies who applied (legacy admit rates are published). So even “hooked” status might not necessarily be advantageous in the ED round.</p>

<p>^^greenbee: this is not a new story; Penn has been overwhelmed with legacy apps for years…legacy and developmental seem to be the way to go these days, unfortunately…</p>

<p>^^rumor has it that legacies at Stanford who are also California residents have it even harder since Stanford has been increasing its OOS diversity over the past decade or so. Indeed, the legacies from our HS which have been accepted to S all have been at the ~75th % of test scores and have been top students (top ~10 out of a class of 550). The only exceptions have been athletes, both recruited and walk-on, who still high scores, but not 75%.</p>

<p>(Yeah, I know S is EA.)</p>

<p>That is one way to look at it. The other way is to compare the percentage of legatees’ admission to the entire pool. </p>

<p>For many, a legacy should translate into an admission --almost every time! When Princeton’s Harpagon decided to reject about 1/3 of the applicants who could claim a parental legacy, he had to face a barrage of complaints. All the while, two-thirds were still admitted! The other 1/3 third wanted his send his head back to Stanford, and on a pitchfork! </p>

<p>As the statistics show, legacy is still a potent hook --and still the most important remnant of the WASP advantages. But as everything else, it does not work without a number of good and solid reasons to be admitted. In a world where angular applications are the most sought after jewels, being a legacy with just better than average stats has become too pedestrian. Wasn’t there a CC story of a fifth generation Cornellian who was rejected in Ithaca! Legacy is valued; entitlement … not so much!</p>

<p>PS BB, sooner or later, we will come back to the element of diversity … as in my prior post where I did not make sense to you! :)</p>

<p>^^even if we come back to it, xig, I’m sure I’ll never get – just not smart enough to understand (nor have a test prep method named after me!)</p>

<p>greenbee, at many selective schools legacy is no longer a hook. It may be a “tip” – when comparing two equal candidates preference might be given to the legacy applicant. Many legacy applicants have very strong statistics and might have gotten in even without the legacy boost. But at many schools, more legacies are denied than accepted.</p>

<p>A lot of people think that schools will overlook weak test scores or grades to accept a legacy candidate, and that is just not true at many schools.</p>

<p>That test prep “method” is just what is described in the front of the SAT prep book you can by at Barnes and Noble.</p>

<p>Darn! And, during all those years, I could not remember where I read it first and where I “borrowed” it from! I hope that the copyright police does not come after me to claim a portion of all the rich fees I collected. </p>

<p>SAT Prep book at Barnes and Noble … yes, that was IT!</p>

<p>On a serious note, Rentof2, I hope you understand that what BB was talking about started with a simple series of posts in 2005. One of the first lines was “First off, let me assure you that there are no earth-shattering secrets in what has been -very generously- dubbed as the Xiggi method. I think that it is mostly based on common sense.” Today, it is just as unedited and unassuming as it was 5 years ago. I’d be happy if it helped one person because that would be one more than I could have reached without this forum. Despite a total lack of updates, it seems that it remains popular on the internet. I guess the price must be right.</p>

<p>But, heck yes. I am thrilled that billion dollar companies also offer positive tips!</p>

<p>xiggi:</p>

<p>aww, I’m extremely hurt that I was not invited to your B&N book signing. :)</p>