<p>I agree with PG about stats. I got so much crap for taking stats my senior year rather than dual enrolling for multivariable calc (I think was what was next in line). Taking the “easy” way out. But nearly every program at my U requires stats and guess who didn’t have to spend an extra $1500 to fulfill that requirement? Stats, in most fields, is far more practical than calc will ever be. I wish more people understood stats, even if they never go through an AP or college course of it.</p>
<p>Colleges vary in how they treat APs. At my son’s college, he got full credit for AP courses. My daughter’s college allows credit only for college courses taken at colleges. </p>
<p>I think a study of how colleges treat APs is a better assessment of their utility than impressionistic remarks by Tierney.</p>
<p>Here’s a table that shows how Yale–no slacker–treats AP classes:</p>
<p>[Table</a> of Acceleration Credit | Yale College](<a href=“http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/table-acceleration-credit]Table”>http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/table-acceleration-credit)</p>
<p>It varies. And it’s not just a science vs. humanities/social science dichotomy. You get advanced placement and credit for chemistry, but not for computer science. For English, but not for psychology. </p>
<p>Another poster on this thread mentioned that AP courses–aside from how they are treated by colleges–have value as advanced courses that go beyond honors level. My youngest child is bored in honors level courses, but he was able to take AP calc as a freshman, and is taking 4 AP courses as a soph. He’s doing this with no thought about how it will affect placement in college.</p>
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<p>So what? Are classes only worthwhile if they are insanely hard? I think there’s a lot of posturing on CC about how classes are only worthwhile if they are absolute killers (coupled with the usual my-pumpkin-learned-algebra-in-the-womb-and-calculus-in-kindergarten). And I say this as someone who sought out killer classes for my own insane purposes. And in hindsight? I wish I’d taken some “easier,” fun, more exploratory courses in different subjects and eased up on myself more. I used AP courses to test out and push myself to higher levels. I didn’t advise my kids to do the same. Life’s not a race to the hardest courses.</p>
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<p>Maybe a child can learn algebra in the womb, but he really can’t understand it at that age. ;)</p>
<p>Interesting article about AP classes:
[AP</a> classes: A problem for Massachusetts high schoolers? - - Boston.com](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/2012/10/06/classes-problem-for-massachusetts-high-schoolers/OFHbosreQ4Kf2WbNrVxS6L/story.html]AP”>http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/2012/10/06/classes-problem-for-massachusetts-high-schoolers/OFHbosreQ4Kf2WbNrVxS6L/story.html)</p>
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<p>That is not what is being argued. The argument is about whether it deserves an AP label signifying a rigorous college-level course.</p>
<p>No one is arguing about whether taking statistics in high school is worthwhile (which is can be for many students). But whether it deserves an AP label is something else entirely. (Although the AP label may be the only incentive for many high schools to offer such a useful course, sadly enough.)</p>
<p>More trolling from annasdad</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, my AP classes were ALL way harder than the equivalent college classes I took from accredited institutions.</p>
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<p>The thing is that statistics is not difficult. It is not difficult when you take it as an AP class and it is not difficult when you take it in college. Not all college classes are difficult.</p>
<p>"
Maybe a child can learn algebra in the womb, but he really can’t understand it at that age. "</p>
<p>Good one!
I was working towards an MBA while I was pregnant, so my twins undoubtedly learned finance and org behavior in the womb :-)</p>
<p>glido in post #11 makes some very good points. I agree that there are some advantages to the AP program. However, my whole issue is that the program has exploded into something well beyond the purposes for which it was designed. It is now being used as an admission tool by the most selective universities. They will tell you that they don’t evaluate the candidate based on AP test scores, but try getting accepted to the most competitive schools without them. It has put high schools students on a treadmill that is really not serving anyone well - the universities lose revenue, the students are stressed and the teachers are put in a proverbial straight jacket as far as curriculum is concerned. The real beneficiary is the College Board who is the beneficiary of the fees, which I am sure are substantial given the current scope of the program.</p>
<p>I think a students high school transcript, their SAT’s and SAT Subject Tests scores are more than enough to evaluate the academic promise of an applicant. AP scores should be submitted after an acceptance letter is received for the sole purpose of evaluating eligibility for college credit.</p>
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<p>Algebra is so CC :). DD2 learned some very useful Industrial Engineering topics while she was in the ‘oven’ as mom was attending grad school at Purdue at the time… </p>
<p>Seriously, I think AP is popular because it has become the defacto national education standard for ‘rigor’ (whatever that may be). If we as a country had bothered to agree on one set of standards for the whole country (as other countries that routinely kick our rear end in student skills do) AP would have an opportunity to mean something really important other than “in our State the normal curriculum is for the birds so it’s AP or bust”</p>
<p>Many of the better colleges don’t give full college credit for AP classes because they don’t believe AP classes are the equivalent of real college classes. My D1’s LAC will give only up to 2 course credits for APs, though they can be used to place into upper-level courses in some fields. Not math, though; everyone takes a college-administered diagnostic test to determine where they start in math.</p>
<p>I think this is the right call. People are kidding themselves if they think the average AP class is the equivalent of a good intro-level class at a top college. Equivalent to an average intro-level class at an average college, maybe, but that’s a really low bar. Sure, there are exceptions. No doubt some AP teachers and AP classes are outstanding. But the currency has been debased. The AP imprimatur shouldn’t be trusted to count for anything.</p>
<p>I have another, broader concern about this, one that’s touched on only lightly in the linked article, and not commented on by previous CC posters. Sure, it’s great for highly qualified HS students to have opportunities to take more challenging classes alongside college-bound peers. But all too often this serves to reinforce segregation by race and socioeconomic status, and thereby serves to perpetuate and systematize disadvantage for lower-income and minority students. That may not be apparent in predominantly white, predominantly upper-middle-class suburban school districts where people have already largely segregated themselves by race and income into separate-and-anything-but-equal school districts, but it’s painfully obvious in urban schools where the best teachers get the plum assignments in predominantly white or Asian, socioeconomically advantaged, small-class-size AP or IB classes. Low-income black and Latino kids get what’s left, which may not be much, and are ghettoized into low-achieving, low-expectation classes with other low-income kids, who are not expected to amount to much and in most cases find it all too easy to meet that expectation.</p>
<p>And that’s a problem.</p>
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<p>I’ve been on cc a long time, but must’ve missed that one. </p>
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<p>Well yeah, because Intro Stats is just that, a one semester college course. So what? (Or, are you suggesting that every AP course should cover a year’s worth of college material?)</p>
<p>fwiw: (sadly), AP Stats covers a lot more than my D’s upper division college Stat class taught by the math department.</p>
<p>bclintonk’s concerns are the reason why Jay Matthews grades high schools by the number of AP courses taken per student, and not by the actual AP scoring. It’s one way to force a larger number of schools and districts into offering AP coursework to a broader population. </p>
<p>I will guess that this plays out in one of two ways. The best case is when there’s a gifted and insanely dedicated teacher, a la Jaime Escalante, who can inspire and browbeat the students into working their little fannies off so that they can meet high standards. The other case is that the course is AP in name only, because most of the students aren’t asked to rise to the challenge…or don’t have the educational background to be able to do so. Which is a heck of a big problem to solve, because then you’re talking about a substandard education starting in elementary school. Much easier to convince people that you’re giving them “equal” educational opportunity by simply offering a few “AP” courses.</p>
<p>College is too expensive the way it is. The more general ed classes you can get out of the way for free at your public HS, the less catfood your parents will have to eat when they’re in their golden years.</p>
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<p>Ramen noodles are cheaper and, I suspect, tastier.</p>
<p>A program that has spun entirely out of control.
A program that robs students from what high school should be.
A program that robs students from what a secondary education should be.
A program that robs the “lesser” students from the advanced teachers they need.
A program that contributes to the abject school within a school syndrome.</p>
<p>Should I go on? I’d call that AP boondoggle a scam, it the term was not that charitable.</p>
<p>Crediting that Matthews luminary for the AP racket would go to his fat head. The schools did not really need much to jump on the next fad as the AP gave them the convenient tool to pay some teachers better, segregate the riff-raff and the annoying, and more than anything else give parents that semblance of a private school at the public expense and all the ego-boosting ammunition for the cocktail parties. Too bad it is all an illusion.</p>
<p>A very good start would be to kick the two weeks of AP exams to the curb, and make them Saturday events. As it stands our HS have become the lackeys of the AP department of TCB. </p>
<p>PS I have to agree with BClinton’s points as I have repeated them ad nauseam in past CC discussions about the AP/IB programs. Obviously I think he is dead-on.</p>
<p>My high school had a policy that really ticked me off: no honors classes where the school offers an equivalent AP. No, we were not so small that it wouldn’t be worth it. I personally would have preferred honors to AP classes in a lot of cases. </p>
<p>A lot of our APs were a waste of time, sadly, because the thinking (not at all the wrong line of thinking, either) was that the “good kids” or whatever would take the AP and the “bad kids” or what have you would take the regular class. :/</p>
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<p>However, that occurs whenever there are multiple levels of courses (e.g. regular and honors), even if there are no AP courses (or no AP courses for the given subject).</p>
<p>Eliminating the multiple levels of courses would eliminate this problem, but would bring up the problem that it would be more likely that the school will drag everyone down to the lower level, rather than pull everyone up to the higher level.</p>
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<p>Soo… average is a “really low bar”? Seriously? :rolleyes:</p>