<p>Dad of 3 said: "There’s a price for everything - if a boost is given to a group, then isn’t it reasonable that people will assume any individual benefited unless s/he proves otherwise? "</p>
<p>Why should my kid have to “prove” anything to you? Why not try a change in your mindset - “This person is at a top college. They must be really good at something.” The default mindset does not need to be one of disparagement.</p>
<p>Hunt, the thing is that black immigrants from haiti or africa do significantly better on the SAT and academically, in general, than American born blacks. The gap is not about race. it’s culture. That’s the real problem with any sort of “racial balancing” agenda. It is seriously myopic.</p>
<p>I do think the kids of today are less conscious of race than in the past. But I’ll bet URMs are a little more conscious of it, especially when they want to go shopping in a nice store if they’re casually dressed.</p>
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Well, the culture of American blacks is, to a large extent, the product of racism and racial discrimination. You can’t separate the two. I readily admit that it’s problematic to use affirmative action for those immigrants. As discussed upthread, it may still make sense as a matter of social engineering.</p>
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<p>Except I became American when I left my immigrant mother’s womb. Don’t like birthright citizenship? Live in a country that doesn’t practice it. You’re not any more American than I am; “your people” are hardly the only ones who can legitimately criticize racial preferences. “Your people” have no more right than “my people” do.</p>
<p>I know I’ve seen articles on SAT scores for non-American born blacks but this gets at a very interesting issue:</p>
<p>[African</a> immigrants out-graduate American Caucasians and Asians - Chicago Public Education | Examiner.com](<a href=“http://www.examiner.com/public-education-in-chicago/african-immigrants-out-graduate-american-caucasians-and-asians]African”>http://www.examiner.com/public-education-in-chicago/african-immigrants-out-graduate-american-caucasians-and-asians)</p>
<p>Sadly, the key is not AA policies at elite schools. The key is in reforming our public schools, particularly in urban areas. That’s a heck of a lot harder than balancing the incoming class at HYPS by race.</p>
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<p>I think it feels like the colleges who practice AA are doing all they can do to help URMs along. It is a State education issue, and unfortunately states like CA are working against that goal by shutting out URMs with their race-blind policies and their reliance on SAT scores for admission.</p>
<p>“They just don’t see race as meaningful.”</p>
<p>I would say my kids don’t see race as a big deal, but I think they see it as meaningful. </p>
<p>Sewhappy, have you or your kids lived as minorities anywhere? Is it hard to believe it might be a different, and even meaningful experience? I had NO idea just how meaningful it was, until I lived awhile in Nigeria.</p>
<p>I remember buying gum, opening the wrapper, and Bazooka Joe was black! Blew my mind! Every ad, every bulletin board, evrry person, looked like me! (well iI thought so; the Nigerians didn’t]. I hadn’t real thought about it much before, an though I grew up in an almost exclusively black neighborhood.</p>
<p>It’s like not thinking being left handed is “meaningful”, until you try some left handed scissors. (I am also lefthanded). </p>
<p>It’s like "Oh! THAT’s how it feels for everyone else. Sure, you manage, but wow! Who knew! Not meaningful? Easy for a right handed person to say.</p>
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<p>Black American culture is not static. Four decades ago, there were dire warnings that the “black family” was in danger because 25% of black children were born out of wedlock. Flash forward to 2005, and the figure spiked to 70% ([Source](<a href=“http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4865449]Source[/url]”>Out-of-Wedlock Births in Black America : NPR)</a>). That metric has worsened even as we have moved farther away from the evil legacies of slavery and Jim Crow.</p>
<p>Black American culture has weakened over time. American blacks have to assume part of the responsibility for that decay. It’s not all their fault, no, but to say that it’s none of their fault doesn’t help.</p>
<p>^ yeah I went back and deleted my snarky PR comment. It’s late and I’m tired. Of course the policies at the schools are well-intentioned and maybe they do more good than bad. I think that’s debatable. Mostly, I think they are sort of irrelevant to the underlying problem. The solution does not lie in elite college admissions. it likes in reforming public k-12,especially in poor and urban poor areas.</p>
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<p>“Race-blind” = “Shutting out URMs”? It’s funny because weren’t "URM"s previously shut out due to “race-conscious” policies?</p>
<p>And don’t the UC flagship schools practice holistic admissions?</p>
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<p>I don’t know what this means.</p>
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<p>Apparently, but they are not legally allowed to take race into account.</p>
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<p>The Little Rock Nine. Did those white protesters clamor against school integration because they were “race-blind”? Or were they “race-conscious”?</p>
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<p>Does that mean their holistic admissions isn’t holistic?</p>
<p>Fabrizio, no one has said or implied that you have “less right” to voice an opinion, or that you are “less American” than those of us who are of Caucasian heritage. Please don’t erect straw men.</p>
<p>“If what you said were true that Asians have a “HYPSM or bust” mentality, Hunt should not have categorized your alma mater as having the most Asians (19%). Cornell’s shouldn’t have been 15% Asian. And why just the Ivies? Boston University shouldn’t have had a freshman class that was 15% Asian. NYU’s shouldn’t have been 21% Asian. And why just the Northeast? Rice’s and Emory’s both shouldn’t have been higher than 20% Asian”</p>
<p>I may be mistaken but I don’t believe Hunt mentioned my Alma mater at all.</p>
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URMs aren’t being ‘shut out’. To consider them shut out is to imply that no URMs could possibly make it into the top colleges based on non-racial stats alone and that isn’t true and probably would be offensive to some URMs. And on another level they’re also not being shut out - they’ll tend to be admitted to other colleges based on their non-racial stats - just like everyone else. If they don’t make it into UCLA, UCSD, UCB then big deal, they may make it into UCD, UCSC, UCR, etc. and if not those, then many of the CSUs and can go on to do just fine when treated the same as any other race in this respect.</p>
<p>Not giving racial preference to URMs doesn’t shut them out.</p>
<p>^ Agreed! </p>
<p>And those that can get into Cal, UCLA, UCSD, etc, but want that inexplicable “critical mass”, can often find it elsewhere.</p>
<p>And, if anyone reading this is so inclined; the pacific northwest is a “sweet spot” if you are black, and race is not “meaningful.”</p>
<p>Ok, I will defer to Shrinkrap’s authority for my “shut-out” comment. I didn’t mean it offensively, only that I think the current UC admissions procedure shuts out a lot of very well-qualified CA residents, including URMs, because it relies so heavily on SAT scores which do not predict future success.</p>
<p>All in favor of eliminating SAT/ACT?</p>
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<p>I straw manned no one. Here’s a direct quote: “For Asians to be complaining about blacks taking their places just seems mean-spirited and selfish to me–sorry. It’s especially offensive, in my book, coming from recent immigrants and internationals, who could have observed the issues of race in this country before coming here.”</p>
<p>When I replied with my “straw man,” I received the response, “And I don’t feel any need to back down from my complaint about immigrants and internationals who want to come to this country for its education, and then complain about how admission to colleges is done in the U.S.”</p>
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<p>Then I was mistaken. I thought you were a Columbia alum. Correction noted: “If what you said were true that Asians have a “HYPSM or bust” mentality, Columbia shouldn’t have the most Asians (19%).” My disagreement remains.</p>
<p>Hunt said he found it galling coming from recent immigrants and internationals. If the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it.</p>
<p>Your other comment doesn’t make sense. Aasians could simultaneously have a HYPSM or bust mentality AND Columbia could have the greatest percent of its student body if Columbia was “friendly” to Asian applicants or less concerned with “uplifting” URMs. You are confusing the concentration of where Asian students tend to apply with the overall composition of a class.</p>