are colleges racist?

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Why aren’t more whites/Asians with scores identical to the "URM"s being admitted? If the "URM"s can do the work with score X, then a white/Asian with identical score X or even X-100 can also do the work. Why is it that we don’t see them in greater numbers at elite institutions?

</p>

<p>Because there is a “thicker” pool of whites and Asians with scores X+100 for them to choose from. Maybe the average SAT’s of the applying URM’s IS indeed lower than the average SAT’s of the applying whites and Asians. So? That’s only relevant if you think that the choice should be predicated upon cherry-picking only the highest SAT kids in the applicant pool.</p>

[woeishe]

<p>

Such as?

Rapping over a phat beat/Summoning the Sun God/Making Burritos… HAHAHAHA I kid I kid. Woeishe out</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Because there is a “thicker” pool of whites and Asians with scores X+100 for them to choose from. Maybe the average SAT’s of the applying URM’s IS indeed lower than the average SAT’s of the applying whites and Asians. So? That’s only relevant if you think that the choice should be predicated upon cherry-picking only the highest SAT kids in the applicant pool.

</p>

<p>I’m not talking about the whites/Asians with scores X+100. I’m talking about the ones with scores X-100 to X (i.e. no higher than the "URM"s with score X).</p>

<p>I asked you if "URM"s with scores of X are being admitted because X is enough to do the work, why aren’t more whites/Asians with scores X also being admitted to those same institutions? I then expressed my incredulity that "URM"s with score X are “interesing/compelling” but whites/Asians with score X are not.</p>

<p>If you’re not going to accept that I don’t believe in “SAT is everything,” at least be honest enough to say it to my face instead of trying to trick me.</p>

[Bay]

<p>

I oppose racial discrimination, both “positive” and “negative.”

</p>

<p>Well that is nice, but the racial discrimination used by colleges is not unlawful. I oppose SAT scores, but those are not unlawful to use, either. So we are both unhappy about something.</p>

<p>

Such as?

</p>

<p>I don’t know, but just because I don’t know doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. For example, maybe URMs score highest on spatial reasoning or something like that, and it is highly indicative of college success, but no one knows it yet.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@Pizzagirl

But having said that, here’s my reaction to that: Knowing that California is a more-heavily-Asian-concentrated area, a school that is <em>that</em> heavily concentrated in Asian says to me “regional school.” It says to me that it draws disproportionately from its own back yard, and that to me is unappealing in a school. That doesn’t mean it’s not a good school, but it says that it has a distinctly concentrated “portfolio”. And that in and of itself is not appealing.

</p>

<p>UC Riverside is not majority Asian; if you didn’t notice, it also has large numbers of Latino students.</p>

<p>But your comment about “regional school” applies to any state university, which draws students primarily from within its own state with lower tuition for in-state students. Someone uncomfortable attending a school with a low number of white students, or a large number of Asian and/or Latino students, might not be too comfortable with many of the University of California and California State University schools. Or perhaps working in California.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Well that is nice, but the racial discrimination used by colleges is not unlawful. I oppose SAT scores, but those are not unlawful to use, either. So we are both unhappy about something.

</p>

<p>Point taken, but in my opinion<a href=“YMMV”>/u</a>, racial discrimination is just a LITTLE bit more harmful than a standardized test.</p>

<p>

I don’t know, but just because I don’t know doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. For example, maybe URMs score highest on spatial reasoning or something like that, and it is highly indicative of college success, but no one knows it yet.

</p>

<p>If it exists, I guess it speaks volumes to how seriously the elites take “diversity” that they haven’t found out what it is yet.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Are we assuming that in the absence of geographic preferences, at least one state’s students would not be represented?

</p>

<p>Yes, quite possibly. What if the only student who applies from Idaho is a 2200 student? And the school has to choose between yet another 2400 from Massachusetts who looks like all the other 2400’s from Massachusetts or a 2200 student from Idaho? Oh well, sucks for the umpteenth 2400 from Massachusetts then. The school might very well decide that an institutional priority is having diversity from underrepresented states. Why this is appreciably different from deciding that an institutional priority is having diversity from underrepresented minorities is beyond me. </p>

<p>But one thing is clear. No “quota on people from Massachusetts” is being instituted. Likewise, no “quota on Asians” (or white people) is being instituted either.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

I think the majority culture has to be the default, but that does not mean it’s the white majority culture, or the Protestant majority culture, or my own culture. It’s the American culture. There are some over-arching values we share as Americans, including freedom, self-determination, individual rights, etc. Other aspects of American culture may be hard to pin down or define, but it does exist and we know it when we see it. As just one example that keeps on surfacing in this discussion: American culture does not believe that high test scores are the end all and be all, nor that they equate with a person being “better.”

</p>

<p>…or “smarter” or “more deserving/meritorious/entitled.” </p>

<p>Agreed. I think that it is very important that American values continue to be the default culture. And I think U.S. colleges overall very much understand that, and that informs their admissions policies.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Someone uncomfortable attending a school with a low number of white students, or a large number of Asian and/or Latino students, might not be too comfortable with many of the University of California and California State University schools. Or perhaps working in California.

</p>

<p>Yes. And a smart URM might be uncomfortable attending a school with a low number of URM’s, and the elite universities don’t want to let that happen. And why should they?</p>

[woeishe]

<p>^ But why would URMs be in low numbers if they were as equally qualified as other Applicants?</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Yes, quite possibly. What if the only student who applies from Idaho is a 2200 student?

</p>

<p>Now that I’m “on” to your game, let me throw that right back at you: what if the only student who applies from Idaho is a 2200 student? So what?</p>

<p>

Why this is appreciably different from deciding that an institutional priority is having diversity from underrepresented minorities is beyond me.

</p>

<p>There’s a reason why racial classification is a suspect class whereas geography is not.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

American culture does not believe that high test scores are the end all and be all, nor that they equate with a person being “better.” </p>

<p>…or “smarter” or “more deserving/meritorious/entitled.” </p>

<p>Agreed. I think that it is very important that American values continue to be the default culture. And I think U.S. colleges overall very much understand that, and that informs their admissions policies.

</p>

<p>I agree. It is a complete overlay of Asian college admissions norms onto the US to suggest that whenever a kid or group of kids with an average SAT score of X is admitted when a kid or group of kids with an average SAT score of x+200 isn’t, that something’s “not right.” </p>

<p>Basically, this boils down to “I think people less qualified than me are getting in when I’m not, and that’s unfair.” And when asked to state what the qualification is, everyone keeps reverting to SAT’s. Even though that’s incongruent with American values.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

But your comment about “regional school” applies to any state university, which draws students primarily from within its own state with lower tuition for in-state students. Someone uncomfortable attending a school with a low number of white students, or a large number of Asian and/or Latino students, might not be too comfortable with many of the University of California and California State University schools.

</p>

<p>^ = a point I made earlier. And yes, it applies to any state university. I can’t think of any right now that would begin to have the full range of exposure that the Ivies have, for example.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

But why would URMs be in low numbers if they were as equally qualified as other Applicants?

</p>

<p>They don’t apply in numbers nearly equalling those of other groups.</p>

[woeishe]

<p>Lol keep American Culture default. BECAUSE GOD FORBID WE LEARN ABOUT DIFFERENT CULTURES!!!</p>

<p>^ and why is that?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

But why would URMs be in low numbers if they were as equally qualified as other Applicants?

</p>

<p>It has escaped your notice that there are undoubtedly-intelligent URM’s who come from cultural backgrounds such that thinking about applying to elite colleges is rather new to them? Why on earth do you think the elite colleges do all the outreach they do? Because they want to find those diamonds in the rough, they want to find the kids for whom any college (much less an elite one) was never on the radar screen. </p>

<p>There have been examples of this on CC - a kid who says no one ever told me I should even bother applying to college, until HYPSM (et al) came my way and showed me that it was possible, that I didn’t have to settle for what everyone else in my neighborhood settled for, and wow, look, my life is transformed. </p>

<p>Since we’re talking about American values, providing precisely that opportunity is a VERY strong American value.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@Pizzagirl

And a smart URM might be uncomfortable attending a school with a low number of URM’s, and the elite universities don’t want to let that happen. And why should they?

</p>

<p>But do you agree or disagree with the possibility brought up previously by another poster that the threshold of “too low” may be significantly higher for white students (who you are suggesting would find UC Riverside’s 17% to be “too low”) than for URM students who may be more likely to be from areas where less than 17% of the population is of their own ethnic group, and who may be considering universities where less than 17% of the population is of their own ethnic group?</p>

[epiphany]

<p>

Lol keep American Culture default. BECAUSE GOD FORBID WE LEARN ABOUT DIFFERENT CULTURES!!!</p>

<p>^ and why is that?

</p>

<p>The entire thrust of replies has apparently gone over your head. It is precisely learning about other cultures (with those various cultures not dominating the college landscape, or replacing American values) that elite universities want a large representation of many cultures from many longitudes and latiitudes on their campuses.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

It is a complete overlay of Asian college admissions norms onto the US to suggest that whenever a kid or group of kids with an average SAT score of X is admitted when a kid or group of kids with an average SAT score of x+200 isn’t, that something’s “not right.”

</p>

<p>It’s common sense to ask why whites/Asians with scores of X aren’t being admitted at the same rate to the same schools as "URM"s with scores of X, given that X is enough to “do the work.” As I said, you have no reason a priori to expect that "URM"s with score X are “interesting/compelling” whereas whites/Asians with score X are not.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Now that I’m “on” to your game, let me throw that right back at you: what if the only student who applies from Idaho is a 2200 student? So what?

</p>

<p>Well, the elite colleges believe that the 2400 from Massachusetts and a 2200 from Idaho is still a richer and more interesting class than two identical 2400’s from Massachusetts. They want to create a rich and interesting “soup” for lack of a better word. If you don’t like that – if you think that the class with the 2400 and the 2200 will be SO much dumber because that 2200 kid will drag down the whole experience, well, then, certainly you won’t be interested in applying there.</p>