<p>woeishe: I already answered your post 741 earlier. I said that in my experience of my geographical area, the difference between the culture of white Americans and black Americans is not nearly as great as the difference between the culture of non-Asian Americans and that of Asian Americans. One thing we generally have in common is the Judeo-Christian heritage. While there are many Asian Christians, I’ve encountered far more Asian atheists and polytheists where I live. (Check out ParentofIvyHope’s newest thread for an example.) This worldview has much to do with our pattern of charitable activity, community involvement, human rights, and social justice.</p>
<p>^</p>
<p>How would I try to add diversity to our elite college compuses?</p>
<p>I would focus more on writing, actually. And not essays that come to them via the common app that could be easily ghost written or heavily edited by a third party. I’d like to see more real time writing be part of the application where candidates are give an hour or so, maybe even internet access, and asked to compose a 1500 word essay. The writing sample on the SAT is not really capturing who has a real voice or distinctive perspective very well, imo. I would love to see some sort of substantive writing exercise be used to find those kids who are perhaps not going to ace the quantitative part of the SAT or even the CR or Writing because of their educational gaps . . . but who nonetheless have a real voice and a compelling world view.</p>
<p>I actually think this would be a good way to weed out the overly privileged, expensively educated but maybe not so interesting kids from getting admitted. That is, if the committee would read for content vs grammar and vocabulary.</p>
<p>I think more of these sort of kids would make Harvard better. And my own might very well have not got in if he’d had to do this!</p>
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<p>No doubt many of them would, as we have no way of knowing whether any Black and Latino students at Harvard were admitted via AA preference. Many people just assume that this is how they managed to get there.</p>
<p>^ Bay, I’m a compulsive editor of my own posts. Go see how I revised . . . I’d love to get your take.</p>
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<p>Then, why do we need racial preferences? To ENSURE that they do? How is ensuring not a quota?</p>
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<p>“Cultural restriction” is very strong of a word: family environments counterproductive to academic achievement don’t necessarily outright “restrict” or “prohibit” the students from intellectual activities, but rather inadvertently discourage by not encouraging enough. Your stereotypical poor, inner city parents don’t tell their kids, “hey, don’t get good grades in school.” They merely show a lack of enthusiasm, and that’s usually enough to impart that academics isn’t all that important. And yes, I do agree that colleges indeed give consideration to this when they evaluate applicants, and I’m glad they do.</p>
<p>But then, there is this other situation I mentioned in the same post you quoted: many Asian immigrant families cannot stand their children spending too much time practicing sports or doing community service while there is school work to be done, no matter what colleges value. As a result of the family environment these students are placed into, they tend to focus more of their attention on academics instead of on certain extracurricular in comparison to their white counterparts. Shouldn’t this be taken into consideration when admission officers evaluate these applicants who have top scores but fewer accomplishments outside of the classroom? I’ve never seen evidence that such consideration is given and would be more than happy to be enlightened.</p>
<p>I’m so enamored by my idea here that I’m going to inflict it again on this thread –</p>
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<p>Gosh, that wouldn’t be fair to STEM-types of students!</p>
<p>Bay #763</p>
<p>This is why AA is unfair to many highly qualified URMs because people think that they would not be able to get there without racial preference.</p>
<p>^^ STEM kids use formulas to write essays</p>
<p>Racists assume that URMs cannot get in without a preference.</p>
<p>Fab,
We have AA because colleges have decided they want to be able to use race as factor. They don’t tell us when and if they actually do use it. That some racist people might assume that every URM at an elite college is there due only to AA is a by-product, but not a reason to abandon the opportunity to take race into consideration when building a diverse class.</p>
<p>^Perhaps, but that kind of careless, thoughtless comments are always made on CC. </p>
<p>sewhappy, great idea, but I think essay writing is even more coachable than the SAT and placing emphasis on writing will simply disadvantage math/science kids and encourage people to spend more money on… essay prepping instead :D</p>
<p>xrCalico,
It is my understanding that the majority of colleges in America (especially publics) look only at GPAs and test scores for admission, and do not care much about ECs. </p>
<p>For the holistic, selective colleges, it is my understanding that super-high stats only applicants are admitted in some numbers there as well. These colleges also usually give their applicants ample opportunity, via essays, to explain “holes” in their applications and background factors that may have limited their achievement in certain areas.</p>
<p>sewhappy:
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<p>I think this is a great idea. I would like to add: give students plenty of time (4 hours or 8 hours - let the colleges figure out the needed time) with some controlable resources for reference and ask them write the essay.</p>
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<p>I think this is myth. Many STEM students are great thinkers. But it does not matter. Just let them show their true ability. What are we afraid of?</p>
<p>sewhappy,
Wake Forest used a novel (to me) approach by having applicants complete short-answer questions online within a limited time frame - I think a couple of minutes. It was fascinating to see my D’s impromptu answers and it probably provided some unique insight about the applicant that most applications do not elicit. I noted that even that process was coachable, though and could still be “ghost” written.</p>
<p>Bay,
Then prove those people wrong by eliminate racial preference. You cannot have both side of issue. Insist that you need racial preference and yet telling people that you don’t need racial preference.</p>
<p>C’mon, people, look at the AP stats upthread. Black kids cannot get into the Ivies at a rate anywhere near their representation in the population as long as test scores play a major role. I see no reason for us to pretend that AA might not really be happening. Of course it is. But:
So you see, URMs, it’s for your own good if instead of having 6% black kids, Harvard should have only 2%. At least that tiny number that gets in will feel better about themselves.
As for quotas: the real reason that quotas are bad is that historically quotas were used to keep the number of some group down–it’s very different from trying to get some critical mass of a disadvantaged group. Even if your goal is really diversity, what you’re going to have to do is try to get some minimum number of people from the various groups you’d like to have on campus, whether it’s people from Idaho or members of a racial minority. (Side note: it doesn’t seem to me that any colleges pay much attention to religious diversity much–indeed, you don’t get much difference in real diversity these days by admitting or limiting Jews, because they are significantly assimilated. You might increase diversity by admitting some Hasidim, I guess).</p>
<p>So, yeah, I think there should be a minimum “quota” of URMs, and we won’t be able to think that the overall societal problems have been addressed until we see a heck of a lot more than 6% black kids at Harvard. But, no, I don’t think there should be a maximum quota of Asians at highly selective schools. Fortunately, I don’t think one is needed, nor is there, to me, persuasive proof that there is one.</p>
<p>I think Hunt’s arguments is consistent. You need racial preference to reach minimum quota of each race. I agree that this is needed to correct some hitorical unfair treatment done to them by white Americans. But why should Asian Americans be limited more than white Americans (some study showed a 3:1 odds for the white and asian student with same qualifications to get into elite schools) is beyond my comprehension. Asian Americans were unfairly treated in the past too, e.g. “Chinese Exclusion Act”.</p>
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<p>I didn’t say we don’t <em>need</em> racial preferences. I said we have no way of knowing whether a URM was admitted due to AA. Of the Black students at Harvard, certainly some of them were admitted due to AA, but many of them were likely bumped into the admit pile for other reasons: legacy, athletics, socio-economic status, international status and academic achievement.</p>