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<p>Berkeley’s plenty selective enough for me; as I said, its acceptance rate in 2010-2011 was 21.52%, which was “how selective Duke, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins et al. were when I was in high school.”</p>
<p>I accept your point and revise my sentence: “…but I think Berkeley simply receives too many applications and doesn’t have enough seats for a pure stats driven system to work.” Please let me know if that is not satisfactory.</p>
<p>^^Too many posters try to explain what they think you mean. Why don’t you just explain what you mean, instead?</p>
<p>“Like Shrinkrap I also believe that the experience of a wealth Black or Mexican is NOT the same as that of a wealthy white.”</p>
<p>“Therefore I support AA for URMs (even those thousands of children of black doctors out there . I do think the tool is a bit blunt though and could certainly be sharpened.”</p>
<p>"How does having different experiences excuse most URMs for being less qualified? Asians are just as discriminated against, yet they are disadvantaged in college admissions. "</p>
<p>Just bookmarking…“excuse most URM’s”…</p>
<p>Most? Do you really want to know what “most” URM’s are doing? Which parents REALLY wish their kids were BORN “URM’s”? Not at the time of applying for college. I mean from conception, and will even concede from at birth. </p>
<p>Saved for another day.</p>
<p>I think Fab et al, might be saying once there is wealth, we all see things the same. That we are all equally invested in understanding "“why URM’s do what they do”, as we are in why “ORM’s face discrimination.”</p>
<p>Fab is saying that if he was “lucky” enough to do what I do, his focus would be the same as mine, because race doesn’t matter.</p>
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<p>Many arguments for racial preferences are actually socioeconomic nature. The whole “from the 'Hood” thing that I keep quoting was from Pizzagirl, for example, and she wasn’t the only one who used that idea to justify the practice. I kept saying that to the extent that the school-year observation for Duke is generalizable to its peers, the whole “from the 'Hood” thing doesn’t happen nearly as often as those people think it does.</p>
<p>[Campus</a> Life and Learning](<a href=“http://www.soc.duke.edu/undergraduate/cll/final_report.pdf]Campus”>http://www.soc.duke.edu/undergraduate/cll/final_report.pdf)</p>
<p>For the year in which the researchers collected data, just under a third of all black admits came from neighborhoods that were “all or nearly all white.” Slightly more than half came from neighborhoods that were at least “mostly white,” and just under seventy percent came from neighborhoods that at least “half white [and half non-white].” Less than one fifth came from neighborhoods that were “all or mostly all non-white,” with the corresponding figure for Latinos even less.</p>
<p>To me, that suggests that most of the black (and Latino) admits were not “from the 'Hood,” at least for that year at Duke. When it came to high schools, the pattern was similar. Just under a fifth of all blacks went to schools that were “all or nearly all white.” About half went to schools that were at least “mostly white.” Over four-fifths went to schools that were at least “half white.” Only one tenth went to schools that were “all or nearly all non-white.” Again, the figures for Latinos pointed even further away from the notion that they were “from the 'Hood.”</p>
<p>Why is this a problem, setting aside the falsehood of “from the 'Hood”? Given how prolific socioeconomic arguments for racial preferences are (e.g. another one is “gems in the rough”), the policy should be changed. Wealthy "URM"s have access to the advantages that Asians are always stereotyped as having: private schools, private test prep, the list goes on. Following Pizzagirl’s baseball metaphor, they’re already “on third base.” These students are not “gems in the rough”; they’ve had ample opportunity to be polished. Why should they receive preferences? If you absolutely MUST have racial preferences, give them to those "URM"s who come from poor families.</p>
<p>I have freely admitted that Duke may indeed attract wealthier students than HYP et al. In addition, the situation may have changed since the study was done. If anyone knows of a similar study performed at those schools, that would be very helpful. I keep referring to Duke because to my knowledge, it is one of the few selective schools to have this kind of information, albeit in limited form.</p>
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<p>HYP et al. are not required to cave to the arguments of the prolific. They must answer only to the law.</p>
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<p>Because, reminding you once again, the US Supreme Ct has held that the benefits of AA inure to the entire student body. That a URM “receives” a preference is of no consequence under the law.</p>
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<p>True. They only have to talk about the sham argument of “diversity.” I would say we’ve made progress if the pro side stops referring to discrimination-based and socioeconomic-based arguments for racial preferences and instead defers exclusively to “diversity.”</p>
<p>And since we’re on the subject of Court jurisprudence, at the end of the day, the pro side better hope that President Obama gets a second term and that Justices Scalia and Kennedy retire before 2016. With those two off the bench, the pro side can likely survive (and thrive) in any racial preference case in the immediate future, unless the appointee turns out to be rogue (cf. Justice Souter).</p>
<p>The <em>sham</em> of diversity is your opinion.</p>
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<p>I would really like to see you stop doing this. Discussions about historic discrimination and socio-economic entitlements are irrelevant in the context of current law.</p>
<p>Fab…once there is wealth, are we all the same? Your kid, and my kid drive down the street in a BMW…do the police think same thing? Your kid brings my kid home; do you notice? I do.</p>
<p>I honestly don’t put ANY energy into upholding affirmative action, I don’t know ANYONE who does; but no, I will not invest in fighting it either. I fight a different fight. Do you REALLY think we are not different because of race?</p>
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<p>You’d like to see me stop or some of your peers stop? Because those phrases I quoted–“from the 'Hood” and “gems in the rough”? Those came from people arguing the pro side.</p>
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<p>For what it’s worth, I’ve been in cars where Asians have drove (viz. my mom and an older friend) where we’ve been stopped for what I thought were pretty arbitrary reasons. On the last day of school of my sophomore year in high school, my friend drove me home. As we were in the parking lot, there were three lanes, and he switched to a less congested lane. The officer directing traffic came to my friend and said, “Since you’re such a smart [expletive], you can wait until he goes.” He was a driver on the lane we were in who was behind us. Right after he said that, a SUV behind us (current lane) with four black students enjoying bass-heavy rap music switched to the lane to the right of us. The officer looked at them…and did nothing. I interpreted that to mean that he didn’t fear two Asians but he feared four blacks.</p>
<p>Having said that, yes, I admit that “driving while black” happens, is disrespectful, and shouldn’t happen. But I would argue that if we want to get away from a society that judges on race, we ought to STOP using race.</p>
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<p>(1) I am 100% for “interracial” dating. Most of the girls I dated as an undergrad were not Asian, and I had one date with a beautiful black girl. It didn’t click for us, but I met her on the bus some time later, and she was obviously in a relationship with a good-looking South Asian guy. Now, I don’t know if their parents cared, but they seemed to be happy.</p>
<p>(2) I am neither racialst nor racist. So yes, I really think you and I are not different because of “race.”</p>
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<p>You’d like me to answer this question or do you think you could answer it? Because those phrases were used by people arguing both sides, including you.</p>
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<p>I used the phrase to express my skepticism that it was true. If your peers stop using it, I necessarily follow.</p>
<p>" The officer looked at them…and did nothing. I interpreted that to mean that he didn’t fear two Asians but he feared four blacks."</p>
<p>What image do you prefer? Or maybe race doesn’t matter and we are all the same.</p>
<p>Okay, I’m mostly kidding here;…your kid brings my kid home …are you thinking…oh! I hope they have babies because it will SOOO increase my grandkids chances at an Ivy!</p>
<p>Edited…Deleted some…husband said you won’t think that’s funny.</p>
<p>" I never attacked any minorities and please go back to check my posts. I actually are in favor of helping URMs in college admission, but with shared sacrifices by other racial groups."</p>
<p>Why can you not find it within you to see people as individuals and not as mere sub parts of a “racial group”?</p>
<p>Until you are cured of your sickness, you are part of the problem.</p>
<p>“she was obviously in a relationship with a good-looking South Asian guy. Now, I don’t know if their parents cared, but they seemed to be happy.”</p>
<p>I think you are a good guy, fab! Some of the best kids I know are Asian! ( Ha Ha!). They are often here, “b boying” <a href=“http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi2493251865/[/url]”>http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi2493251865/</a> with my son. Who knew! </p>
<p>Again, can’t help wondering what their parents are thinking!</p>
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<p>There are a lot of references to the Supreme Court on this thread, usually implying that it is some kind of arbiter of right and wrong.</p>
<p>The SC determines (through a more or less politicized prism) whether something is permitted under law. Laws are made of course in an overtly political manner.</p>
<p>So we are all at liberty to hold that the SC is wrong, and to seek to influence the legislative process to change the law to clarify what we want.</p>
<p>Race and admissions: A real case, also a CC poster, who is of a mixed race (black and Asian), now at Rice. See if she checked black or Asian on her application and why.</p>
<p><a href=“Multiracial Students Face Quandary on College Application - The New York Times”>Multiracial Students Face Quandary on College Application - The New York Times;
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<p>No, Fabrizio, you are confusing irony with sarcasm. Again, all you do is play games, and for the simple reason that you cannot formulate a position that is defensible. </p>
<p>When pushed to “explain” or offer support to your claims, you retreat behind a wall of defiance and attempt to question the intergrity of the persons who ask the questions.</p>
<p>Again, WHY do you think asians suffer from discrimination, and what is the bsis for your claims?</p>
<p>From the NYT story above, the official “who is ultimately responsible for Rices effort to promote diversity on campus”
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<p>It isn’t really about diversity, is it?</p>