I’m hoping someone here at CC can shed some light on a concern I have.
Despite being a direct admit (i.e. no pre-declaration classes are required) into some very fine computer science programs at other prestigious schools, I am still strongly considering UMich. I love Ann Arbor and the campus.
UMich LSA-Computer Science requires taking four pre-declaration classes before being allowed to declare the major. How hard is it to get through these classes? Are they weeder classes with crazy grading curves purposely designed to prevent most of the students from getting through? A challenging academic environment is not normally a concern of mine, but I have no use for an adversarial classroom environment where the professors are rooting against me via an absurd grading curve structure hoping to reach a quota of drop-outs.
My only concern here at UMich, and the one that is causing me to consider the other schools, is that I’m not a direct admit into the UMich CS program. I don’t want to end up in classes where the goal of the professor is to weed out as many students as possible preventing me from declaring—even if the hurdle gpa is only 2.5. Especially while forgoing a sure thing at schools like UChicago, Northwestern, UPenn, Berkeley(I will not go to Berkeley!), Johns Hopkins, and even UC San Diego which has a great CS department at a fraction of the cost of all these schools…even though money is not an issue with my family.
Any suggestions? Do I go direct admit to one of the other schools or roll the dice and stick with my favorite which is Michigan?
@kes2022 Great question. I would love to hear the answers you get. If you don’t mind me asking, why would you pass up some other highly ranked schools for Michigan? Did you get into any of the engineering schools for CS direct admit? If so, Northwestern or UPenn or even John Hopkins in engineering for CS would be a great way to go. Maybe you applied arts and sciences though. Why not UPenn?
@hcmom65,
Yeah, I realize I have a lot of choices. I’m very fortunate.
I applied to, with direct admit to, the following colleges within the schools I listed above:
Northwestern - Weinberg College of Arts and Science for BA in CS.
Johns Hopkins - admitted to the university, not any particular college within it. I guess I can study anything I want, but listed CS as the intended major. The acceptance letter didn’t say CS or anything else about major.
All the UCs, except UCLA (I was flat out rejected) - All college of engineering, except UC Irvine which is a College of CS.
UPenn - School of Engineering & Applied Science.
UChicago - College of CS.
My tentative picks are in this order for CS:
UMich - If I can’t get comfortable with their pre-declaration process, then they’re out.
UC San Diego
UPenn
JHU
Northwestern
UChicago
@KES2022 I am chuckling reading your original post. You are evidently a very capable student (congratulations on your acceptances) but worries about getting into cs as a major. Think of it this way, Just because you are a direct admit at some other fine institutions of learning that doesn’t guarantee you that you will pass all your classes and become a CS professional. You still have to take the preq. classes.
My son was direct admit to many fine engineering schools but picked Michigan lsa (he had his reasons) over them. He just did the cross campus transfer, https://www.engin.umich.edu/admissions/undergrad/cross-campus-students/admissions/
And it wasn’t a big deal. He is not CS but elected to take Eecs 183 over Engr 101. So c++with python over Matlab. Most of the kids in 183 are first year CS students. He loves the class and is a math kid, but a few weeks ago they had to solve a problem that took him and his partner 11 hours over 2 days to solve. They did and were 2 days early on the project. The computer program had to agree with their answer and so did the graduate student making sure they didn’t take short cuts etc.
Remember this is not University of Illinois CS that they will bluntly tell you that only 30 %of the students will make it past the first year and then only half of those students will make it past sophomore year. Michigan wants you to succeed and will give you the resources to do so. Saying that and as capable as you seem, expect a dip in your GPA. At the engineering open house they were telling the students the days of getting all “A’s” are over with. They said getting a"b"at Michigan is like getting an A anywhere else.
I told my son to not focus on grades like in high school, focus on learning. College is supposed to be challenging and why Michigan grads are some of the most sought after.
If money is not an issue, I would focus more on the fit of the university. What do you want out of the college experience? You will do fine anywhere you go.
Michigan will also help you in anyway they can if you take the initiative. My son is already taking advantage of that with starting a tech club with other kids and be awarded two nice size grants for it.
The Michigan alumni is a real thing and can tell you about opportunities already with my freshman son if you want to pm me.
@knowstuff, Thank you for the UMich endorsement. This really is the kind of encouragement I’m looking for at this point. Yeah, I do realize I may be fighting windmills here with my concerns. I just hate throwing away a sure thing an replacing it with an unsure thing. I do like this school and can see myself enjoying my next four years here.
I went to Campus Day last week and loved the campus, the school spirit, and the college town feel. Unfortunately, our tour guide was a psych major and had no knowledge about the LSA-CS program and couldn’t shed any light on my concerns—I wish I had chosen Campus Day for the engineering students group instead of the LSA group because they probably could have answered my CS questions. Overall, she did a good job though.
I did contact an LSA advisor on Wednesday and she was very helpful about describing the pre-dec classes, and scheduling hypothetical first year course loads with what-if scenarios with respect to my AP test scores, but she had no real insights about attrition rates or any weeder issues—perhaps because there really aren’t any. She did say that the students who do struggle in the CS classes are usually the ones who employ reckless time management, procrastinate with their homework, and never utilize the schools resources like math labs, professor’s office hours, and tutoring.
I realized one thing while at Campus Day that is for certain. It will be very difficult to attend another school that doesn’t have a Blank Slate Creamery ice cream shop—MAN, THAT WAS GOOD!
@KES2022… The advisor is correct. Use the resources when you need them and you should be fine. I would reach out to the engineering admissions and email Bryan Enochs. He has been incredibly helpful to me and the people I have sent his way. He will give you a realistic view of what to expect. I am sure there are weeder classes for every program. Math is supposed to be hard at Michigan and do far easy for my son. Physics that he had AP physics with Calc seemed to be harder then it should of been but he was taking 18 credits with 2 sciences with 2 labs and working 2-3 days /week.
He went to the number 1 school in our state and finds Michigan to be less competitive but very collaborative amongst the students do far. The group they started is one Ross kid, one engineer and 2 CS kids.
As far as Northwestern and U of C… Since I live in Chicago… NW will be more competitive and Chicago is known as where fun goes to die… Both great schools and my son didn’t care for either since they are just too close to home for him.
BTW - my son did an engineering program at Berkeley a few years back in the summer. Loved the campus and program but commented on the fact that there was a feeling that kids don’t make it through the program. It seems so far at Michigan (I know recent graduates from engineering also) that yes, it’s going to be hard but they truly will help you and want you to succeed.
@knowstuff, Oh yes, we did Pizza Bob’s too - twice in fact!..and yes, we did the hot fudge chocolate chip shake based on your recommendation in my “Going to Campus Day” thread. OH MY! It’s one of the best shakes I ever had.
Thanks for taking the time to help answer some of my concerns, and the links. Seriously, it has made a difference toward helping make Michigan a more than likely SIR. I will most definitely want to contact Bryan Enochs next week as well. Thanks for sharing that. My dad gave me a deadline to decide which school. I have until one week before the SIR is due. #:-S
We’ll be heading to UCSD on Saturday to check it out. Afterward, I’ll make a choice.
Oh, a funny story. On our flight home from Detroit, we had to fly to Chicago for a layover. We flew first class and sat in the first row of the plane. The stewardess, who has lived in Chicago her entire life, was a hoot. My parents and I chatted with her for the entire short flight. She jokingly said that no matter where I decide to go to school, choose a place that’s not cold. She said no matter how the schools are ranked that I should go to San Diego based solely on the weather. She laughed.
@KES2022 I think this link will shed some light: https://gradeguide.com
It gives the grade distribution of courses offered at UMich, which will probably shed some light for you on the difficulty of the classes.
@KES2022 As a current student at the University of Michigan who has taken some of these classes within the last two years, I believe I may be able to shed some light on the subject. I came into Michigan as a freshman with zero programming experience. As a Freshman, I took EECS 183, which is the base level computer science class here ( if you go through LS&A). I got an A in the class by working hard, but didn’t have to ruin my social life or other aspects of my life to get that A. I now am pursuing a Computer Science minor because of how much I enjoyed the class (I am a Ross BBA major). EECS 280 was much harder then 183, but I still got a solid grade in the class.
What I am trying to say is that you seem to be a very intelligent person for getting into all of those schools. Additionally, you probably have some programming experience. I came in with no experience in programming and am not as inclined intellectually for programming logic, and I excelled in the beginning programing classes. I think you could thrive in them.
Along with this, the professors are awesome. They have done so many amazing things, and are both engaging and willing to help out. in 183, the professor stayed an hour and a half passed his designated office hours time to help my team with our final project because he was so excited about how cool and unique our project was.
If you enjoy the vibe and feel of Michigan, I would not let the notion of weeder classes deter you. While CS classes here are probably some of the more difficult courses offered at the university, they aren’t set up to cause you to fail. The only thing they “weed” is the kids who aren’t willing to put in a bit of work and think they can just do CS and make a ton of money, but don’t actually develop the right programming logic and skillset. If you enjoy this subject you will be fine.
I personally have no experience with the College of Engineering route nor am I a CS major, so maybe someone with more expertise in those two areas will disagree with me. But again, from my experience as a kid who had no programming experience and probably isn’t as technically inclined as you are (based on your getting into such great schools), I have really enjoyed the lower level CS classes here.
@quintessence21 - How difficult is it to do Ross and CS minor? Do you have room for other classes also? Also, do you know Ross kids who do a dual major in CS or Information Science. I know that would take longer because of the additional credits >150, but is that worthwhile?
@busymd - It is not a high quantity of classes for the CS minor, but given how the classes must be taken in a specific order, scheduling in other classes can be a bit difficult during certain semesters when Ross gives you a heavy course load. For example, this semester and next semester I am only taking Ross Core, CS, and Ross elective classes, no LS&A classes. However, senior year I will have lots of room to take other classes now. I plan on taking Ross electives, but one could opt to do LS&A courses instead as long as their Ross requirements are filled. I am not complete with it yet so I can’t give you a full answer…
Ross CS dual is very tough. I know maybe 2 or 3 people personally going for it, but I also know two people who have already given up on it. School of Information + Ross is guaranteed an extra semester to complete, given the nature of the programs. I do have a friend doing that right now.
Is it worthwhile to do so? I’m not sure. Taking that extra semester for the Information Science doesn’t seem worthwhile to me unless you have a true passion for UX or Big Data. Ross will set you up career wise where you don’t need something like that to look good, a minor making you a bit more unique is just fine. Maybe other people have more info on this then me.
I know a Dual major CS and Ross senior who has some pretty sweet full time offers, but again that’s going to take a lot to do.
CS major + Ross minor or Ross BBA + CS minor have been very good routes to take, at least from people I know personally (from job placements I’ve seen). My overall suggestion when it comes to Ross is to find a minor that you either really enjoy or gain a unique skill from that makes you stand out as a BBA, but that is not really related to this topic, which was more focused on CS.
I have taken these intro CS courses as a LSA student.
They are very possible weeders, but are navigable if you prioritize your academics and do not have many non-academic commitments.
EECS 183 can be used as a bit of a test - you should be able to secure a A- or higher. Anything lower means potential trouble unless you have particularly good reasons that will not resurface in later semesters. It is not graded on a curve.
EECS 280 and 203 are graded on a curve where the median receives a B-/C+. Remember, you need a C to declare in CS LSA. Anything less than a B- in either class might mean potential trouble in future CS coursework. It only gets harder, for the most part.
For Calc I, anything less than a A- may spell potential trouble in handling the rigor, refer to my EECS 183 point above.
For Calc II, anything less than a B might mean trouble in being able to handle the rigor of CS…
@quintessence21 Thanks! My son will be freshman in Ross in September and his goal was always to “double major” in business and CS. However, at Michigan, there is no simple “double major” between schools. This is one thing that really annoys me about Michigan by the way. While he did get into schools where double majoring in those two are much more accessible, we felt we couldn’t turn down Ross with its great reputation and job opportunities. Hence, that is why he is trying to figure out how to satisfy his interest in CS at Michigan. Not easy, but it sounds like a minor is the way to go.
Have him talk with an advisor. Taking one or two classes over spring or summer term might help him decrease the load a bit to achieve his goals. But I am sure you can have the cs minor and see how it goes and maybe turn that into a major down the road?
He did speak with an adviser. One problem with a CS double major is that you have to do LSA requirements, such as 4 semester of language, etc. and also have 150 credits. A double major in other universities does not require an additional 30 credits, you can have a double major between schools with only 120 credits. Anyway, it is what it is… I agree he can start with a minor and see how it goes since they have same initial prerequisites. I personally think Information Science is interesting, but you don’t apply for that until soph year, I hear it is very hard to get into, and then you would definitely need another semester or so to complete all of their requirements plus remaining Ross requirements
@haost23, Thanks for that link. This is extremely helpful—I wonder if those are the grade distributions of all the UMich students in those classes which were retrieved from UMich’s grades database, or are they from only those students who volunteered their grades from perhaps some sort of a survey?
