Are many middle/high school students being pushed too far ahead in math?

<p>I see posts from high school students who completed precalculus in 10th grade (two years ahead of normal) who do not take calculus BC even when available in 11th grade, apparently because they fear that it is too hard or something.</p>

<p>This seems weird to me, because when I was in high school, a student who completed precalculus in 10th grade was considered a top student in math who would go on to calculus BC in 11th grade and get an easy (for him/her) A in the class and 5 on the AP test. Such students appeared once every few years back then (less than 10% of the class was one year ahead, completing precalculus in 11th grade and taking calculus BC in 12th grade).</p>

<p>But if the students were pushed two grades ahead in math even when they were merely good (not great) at math, that could be an explanation for not wanting to take calculus BC. If middle and high schools are doing this pushing, does it really make sense?</p>

<p>In the magnet program of our district, some students are taking pre-cal in 8th grade, many taking algebra 2, and almost everyone will finish geometry before entering high school. In a number of cases I know, it is primarily driven by students themselves, not the parents. But the school of course is involved by making those classes available. And there seems to be a real inflation going on; just a couple of years back, algebra 2 would cap even the most advanced middle school students.</p>

<p>Yes; my teacher(s) all say that math is being completely converted to “Preparation for Calc.” The focus is now on being able to get kids through the line faster, and therefore “better,” while skimping on things like the logical reasoning gained after a year’s hard study in geometry at a more mature age, and a strong foundation in algebra. I personally feel that this is true. My algebra was very lacking, and it took two years of Alg 2 and a very hard IB HL1 course to fix up all the holes that came from learning algebra in a **** middle school in the 8th grade, when my mind wasn’t as developed as it could’ve been. </p>

<p>Newton and Galileo made all their discoveries by Geometry. It was considered the height of education to “know” your Euclid, and deeply, so that math and logic etc. could be understood actually and used properly. Why try and make students look good for college by getting them into Calc BC, a tiny subset of math, faster? They’re not ready for it, there’s no need to be ready for it so young, and in the process they’re setting themselves up for math failure by not learning the principles of reasoning.</p>

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<p>That still does not explain why they would need to push students more than one year ahead in math, since the one year ahead students can complete calculus BC as seniors.</p>

<p>Back when I was in middle and high school, moving ahead in math was just due to teachers noticing that the students were bored acing whatever grade level math assignments were thrown at them. I.e. judging that the students were actually ready to move ahead early, rather than pushing them. Perhaps that is why the number of students a year (or, rarely, two years) ahead in math was small compared to what appears to be the case now, but they had no problem going full speed ahead into calculus BC immediately after completing precalculus.</p>

<p>In my grade (I’m a senior) and a grade or two below me, there are about 30 people out of a class of ~500 that are taking/took precalculus in 10th grade. Most of these these people qualified for 7th grade algebra through a placement test given in 6th grade and possibly other test scores as well. There are a few, like me, who only skipped a math class as a junior or senior through self-studying for the AP Calculus BC exam or showing impeccable competency through math competitions and the like.</p>

<p>At the junior high school that I went to, more than a fifth of the 7th graders are taking algebra. This number is very high, and is probably due to pressure from the parents to advance in math, presumably to look better for college admissions. These people qualified using our state’s standardized test scores. In order to accommodate the incoming classes that have over 100 people who will complete AP Calculus by 11th grade, our school has created a class combining multivariable calculus and linear algebra, usually sophomore-level college math courses. This is exceptional for a public high school.</p>

<p>I suspect that the difference between these two groups is that the first group consists mostly of people that really do need to be in a higher level of math classes, while the second group has many people pushed by parental pressure (though some definitely do need to be in higher level math courses). I think my junior high school reduced the requirements to place into 8th grade algebra because of more and more parents arguing for their children to be placed into higher math classes, whether their children really need it or not. So at least in our school district, parents, more than the students or the schools, are the cause for skipping grades in math.</p>

<p>Schools teach what’s needed for the general student, plus a bit more for those who want to pursue those fields. The typical person never uses calculus in life and teaching that in HS may hence be considered advanced math. When kids show an interest and aptitude in engineering areas, there is so much more math, even in algebra and geometry, that is valuable. </p>

<p>DS and I would play with electrical circuits while he was in elementary school, and EE uses things like complex numbers, so he began to learn them while he was quite young. Similarly, subjects like discrete math are not typically covered in K-12 but for someone interested, there’s a lot of opportunity. Since we did a lot of competitions, it wasn’t a question of being pushed too far ahead, but just going along with one’s interests, and keeping up with the others in these competitions. </p>

<p>As far as calculus is concerned, we used to use amusement parks to study some physics, and calc was part of this and that’s when he learned the subject, in middle school. We were very fortunate that U Pitt has an annual integration bee for their students, and I was able to persuade the prof to hold one for K-12ers too, which DS enjoyed greatly for years.</p>

<p>I think yes. At least for D, who, because she was pushed ahead in middle-school but found pre-calc nearly impossible, is ending up with only 3 years of math in HS. Though she was great at algebra and loved trig. Of maybe I should say-- if math has to be so calculus oriented, we need to focus on finding and training great math teachers. That would make a big difference for a lot of kids.</p>

<p>It gets no love on CC but personally I think AP Stats is probably more real world useful than calculus. The vast majority of people are never going to use calculus. I say this as a math major who can get all geeked out on most any math field.</p>

<p>Our area of the county is actually very difficult for some kids to move ahead in. It is mapped in middle school. If you miss this mapping due to work habits of a middle school boy who hasn’t hit his stride yet, or a slightly off day on a standardized test, not only will you not be moved into the accelerated program, you will be moved from it. The ironic thing is we feed into the IT high school. Go figure.</p>

<p>I agree that some kids can be simply plugged through math too quickly now. Our own experience has simply been very frustrating, for one of our kids specifically. If the entire high school were being judged the same you are on an even playing field, but that’s not the case in our situation. This starts much sooner and the middle schools don’t have the same policy so the students don’t have equal opportunities that will eventually be looked at to see who took the harder course rigor when checking that box for college admissions. Also, prereq’s for their STEM classes are all based on the math placement, putting students from one middle school feeding into the IT high school at a disadvantage. :mad:</p>

<p>I see way too many high school students not taking a single math class in 11th or 12th grade. I think the problem is that there isn’t a “regular track” for math at that level. Either you are a math genius or you are done. These students should be able to take advanced algrebra (linear or matrix perhaps or statistics) rather than a calculus based class. There should be more choices. All roads don’t need to lead to calculus.</p>

<p>Pizza girl I think you are right. My dd took Stats instead of calculus her senior year. She did well enough in it and got credit at college. She is taking calculus now in college and says she is doing well. We were so worried it would be a problem for her since so many hit a wall with calculus. I guess it is a good thing she is ok because she needs a few years of calculus for her major.</p>

<p>There are students at our school who opt for stats their Sr. year. This is far more common for kids applying to humanities.</p>

<p>^^We had the exact same situation with son. He got a 5 on AP stats. He’s now taking calculus with an A so far and is planning to take Calculus II next semester. I think he just wanted to take a more ‘real-world’ application class in Sr year and I don’t think the Calculus BC class at our school was geared toward the average math student but more toward those few math ‘geniuses’. Our school took all AP classes very, very seriously with a pass rate of over 90% and mostly 4 and 5 across the board. They wouldn’t let someone take an AP class unless they were very sure the student could pass the exam.</p>

<p>My district decided that yes, they were. While a child can learn to perform the computations, as someone else pointed out, they are not yet ready, developmentally, for some of the logic and critical thinking skills. The brain, like the body, takes time to mature. So, my district eliminated the the top math track, which jad been putting some kids two years ahead. Now, the brightest start algebra in 8th grade, but are still ready for calculus by senior year, if they want to go that route. As to the cries of “my kid will be SO BORED,” the way math is taught to that top group is very different. No one should be bored unless he decides to be.</p>

<p>In our district a child can qualify for math one or two years above grade level depending on teacher recommendation, parent recommendation (with some proof of ability/work outside school) or test scores. </p>

<p>Our family had varying results: One kid ended up appropriately challenged in classes one year above grade level. Placed there due to testing.</p>

<p>One kid tested into math two years above grade level, breezed through every math class and ended up with AP Stats, and AP Calc BC as a senior. </p>

<p>One kid tested into math two years above grade level, but really struggled because the expectation was that the child would then be ready to hit the ground running, having skipped 2 years of math instruction. No efforts from the school to teach what was skipped. After working with a private tutor, but still “looking like a deer in the headlights” during class instruction, this kid did pass the high school algebra assessments in 7th grade, but we pulled her out, and had her repeat algebra I in eighth grade. She just wasn’t comfortable at that high level of instruction, and math had become a huge source of stress for her. She is now doing very well in high school math working one year above grade level. In retrospect, her test scores barely qualified for the highest level math, and her work habits at the time were underdeveloped, to put it kindly. It was the wrong decision to place her in such a high level math class. </p>

<p>There are many parents who think we were a little crazy to drop our DD down one math level, but every math teacher we know thinks too many kids are pushed into high level math. Those who should be there don’t struggle much, love it, and clearly are well placed in the class.</p>

<p>I am so completely out of it as far as math education is concerned, that I probably shouldn’t say anything. But my memory is that I hardly learned any math in high school. There was an incredible amount of repetition. I learned basic algebra and geometry in middle school, and basically kept going over the same stuff in high school, with the addition of some trigonometry and, finally, calculus. I use my 8th grade math all the time, and I’m still good at it; I can’t remember a single thing I learned in high school math. Every now and again I have taken a practice SAT or GRE, or one of our state standardized math assessment tests for high school, and I do fine.</p>

<p>My daughter was placed in accelerated math in 8th grade (aiming at calculus in 11th grade), and the result was that she went from liking math and feeling competent at it to hating it. She took non-AP calculus in 11th grade, which she found completely useless; she struggled to get Cs in bottom-level college calculus classes. She’s 24 and she’s just recovering from her math education to the point where she can learn and use math again. Her brother – who always liked math better than she, and did better in his math classes, but wasn’t as much of a conceptual thinker – was not placed in accelerated math, and he did fine and felt great about math until the second semester of Calculus BC, when he smacked into some kind of wall. And in college he hit exactly the same wall.</p>

<p>One way or another, all of us were really poorly served by our math educations. I never knew what the point of anything was. I agree with Pizzagirl that focusing on statistics rather than calculus would probably yield better results, both for the polity in general and for math education.</p>

<p>We live in a large, urban district where the highest (but seldom offered) math option is Calc B/C. However, the state requires math only through Algebra II. A couple of years after my kids took Geometry in 8th grade, the district determined it was setting students up for failure and decreased the fast track offerings. We subsequently learned that the district’s perception of “failure” was low scores on standarized tests attributed to the lag time between earlier advanced math classes and the actual tests. Our argument to the district was why not implement more of a legitimate screening process rather than deprive kids who genuinely need the challenge of higher level math.</p>

<p>We have had this issue with D2. She is very bright, but math is not her favorite subject. She was put on the advanced math track in 7th grade, which was fine with us since at least 50% of the kids are on this track. D1 had also been in advanced math, so we were familiar with it. </p>

<p>Problem, they changed it and rushed the math even more! When D1 was in high school her math looked like this Algebra 8th, Geometry 9th, Alebra II w/ trig 10th, Precalc 11th, Calculus first semester and then Calculus BC second semester 12th. Worked great for her. She loved math! Got a 5 on the AP test. She is not a traditional STEM student, but could easily be if she changed her mind. Currently is an Art Studio major w/ a CS minor.</p>

<p>New math track for D2: Algebra 8th, Geometry AND Algebra II w/ trig 9th, Precalc 10th, Calc and AP Calc 11th and then dual enroll or AP Stats 12th. Since D2 is not a fan of math and has no intention of being any where near a STEM major, she took herself off the track and for 10th grade and will be taking Algebra III. She’ll then take precalc and AP Stats to finish off her HS Math since she will pursue something in the humanities area.</p>

<p>Because they started this faster track the year after D1 left middle school (for us 7-9), she had many of the first group of sophomores in her precalc class and 75% weren’t ready either academically or socially. When they hit Calc. it was even worse. Many of the HS math teachers have been complaining that the kids aren’t ready. It hasn’t been determined if this a teaching issue or a maturity issue, but I have a feeling it will change when our new hs opens and the 9th graders are put back into the HS building.</p>

<p>We have the opposite problem in our district. They really limited the number of students who they would let into Algebra 1 (though it was then whatever the integrated math sequence was called). My son had been doing EPGY math on his own in elementary school and really was ready to start algebra in 6th grade. It was like pulling teeth to get them to admit that he needed more than the standard honors sequence, but eventually I got them to put him in Honors 7th grade pre-algebra. Two other kids joined him after hearing from me how we’d managed it. They all sailed through math easily, took a linear algebra class my senior year (along with several other seniors who jumped ahead by taking pre-calc in summer school). I never heard of any problems either academically or socially with the double advanced group. The ones I know of in that group went on to good colleges majoring in engineering or comp sci. </p>

<p>If anything I think our school is underestimating who is ready to move faster. I myself took algebra in 8th grade, but since I was a year young, I was taking Calculus at 16. I’ll admit that while I got an A in the class, and I loved it, I somehow bombed the AP. No harm done really though, I took Calc again (self paced) after a break in college. It was an easy A the second time around. I even ended up getting a job correcting calculus homework. I don’t use calculus in my life, but I am glad I took it. That said, I do regret never having taken a statistics class. </p>

<p>I had a conversation with one of the high school math teachers who said she really wanted to put together a class in advanced math topics that could be an alternative to calculus, but was never able to either rustle up enough interest either from students or her department chair.</p>

<p>I don’t think kids should feel pressured to speed through the math curriculum, but I do think there should be a way to make it easy for those who can and should go faster to do so. And I’ll also say, I think middle school math is ridiculously slow paced. In the process of figuring out what my son should do in middle school math I had the text books for 6th and 7th grade to compare. The only difference I could find was that the 7th grade had an example of box and whisker charts and the 6th grade one didn’t. Otherwise it was all the same material!</p>

<p>My S attends a public HS and he’s on the advanced track. These have been his classes:</p>

<p>6th: General Math
Moved to new state (missed their pre-algebra in 6th, but didn’t need it)
7th: Algebra I
8th: Geometry
9th: Honors Algebra II
10th: Honors Trigonometry/Honors Analytic Geometry
11th; AP Calc AB (got a 5)
12th: AP Calc BC (current) </p>

<p>We’ve been happy with this. I’m not aware of anyone advancing ahead of this track at his school, but if so, they could attend Community College. I am aware of a student at another school taking college classes junior and senior year. I do not see any pushing.</p>