<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14232122/%5B/url%5D">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14232122/</a></p>
<p>Interesting article. The ending left me wanting to read the book though! I am wondering if Julie really did write her college essay on her college counselor firing her! I read this article with two perspectives, one as a parent and two as a college counselor myself. </p>
<p>As a parent.....this girl reminds me SO much of my oldest D who is now a rising junior at Brown. In fact, the photo for the book cover, not only "fits" but my D wrote one of her major colege essays about the balance of her many interests and well roundedness of her life and starts the essay out about wishing she were an octopus with more arms given what she walks out the door with each morning (like the picture but more, lol). Anyway, my D had a similar profile (though higher SATs) to Julie and had similar thoughts to Julie. In my view, Julie is an excellent candidate for college, as I believe my own daughter also had everything going for her as well. </p>
<p>Wearing my counselor hat....I am cognizant of the highly competitive and selective nature of top schools in our country and know that kids like Julie are no sure bet at several of the schools she was considering. However, unlike the counselor, I think Julie is a worthy and solid candidate who should not be discouraged from applying but should have a well balanced list. Yes, she didn't cure cancer and she doesn't have any unique activity or hook and yes, there are lots of Julies out there pursuing these schools with low admit rates. But she has a shot, I feel. Not every candidate is from Mongolia (LOL) as the college counselor lamented. Kids like Julie DO get in. She has lots of qualities she could sell and is an attractive candidate. I would not discourage a student like her from pursuing some reach schools like she has in mind, as long as she explores and applies to some schools more safely in her ballpark that don't have such low admit rates, as well as some safety schools. I think to tell a kid like that who has done everything right that she has no chance, is unfair and untrue. I think the counselor needs to be honest about the tough odds and about the "competition" she'll face but also realistic that this girl has SOME chance. If she had no chance, the counselor should say so. But I don't think a girl like this has NO chance. This counselor sounds overly discouraging. I think the counselor should be honest, however. But this counselor seems more concerned with HER OWN record of getting kids into Ivies and the like and would rather a kid like Julie to not even apply to such schools. I think the counselor should strive for the kid to have a successful admissions outcome but also allow for reasonable reach schools even if the candidate has not walked on water. I don't think my D has walked on water and she got into most of her schools, including two Ivies. She is a lot like Julie, so there :).</p>
<p>lol that article reads like a soap opera script! and i agree, now i really want to read the book...sounds like a novel! humble all-american underdog Julie against Very Vicious Vera!</p>
<p>So it's not the college counselors that get the kids into the schools, it's the kids that get into the schools and then make great reputations for the college counselors. lol</p>
<p>My guess is it is the same with the colleges. The schools need to find students who they think will be successfull in life so the schools will have great reputations. It's not the schools turning kids into successes. The kids were already going to be sucessful. </p>
<p>I feel very sorry for the kid in the story. She doesn't know Stanford very well, but somehow, she just has to go to Stanford. People should just leave her alone. Who is being helped by the college admissions frenzy?</p>
<p>It's not the kid.</p>
<p>Susan, you are missing the big picture.</p>
<p>dstark, I'm not missing the big picture. I do not feel the way the counselor does in that story (excerpt). Where the kids I work with get in is not about me. It is all about THEM. I am only there to assist and guide. A parent with the time and expertise could do the same. As a parent, I did not influence where my kids chose to apply/attend, I was a resource, guide, facilitator, supporter. As a counselor, I do the same. It is THEIR process. The choices are theirs to make. I do not mold anyone. I do not discourage anyone. I do not work just with kids who are striving for highly selective schools, whatsoever. You may assume I just work with "driven" kids who seek out prestigious colleges but to the contrary, many of my clients have SAT scores in the 900's (CR/M), and GPAs around 3.0. I help all students. College counseling is not just about striving to the "top". I just hope to help a student put together a list of college that would be most suitable for them based on their college preferences, interests, backgrounds, and needs and hope they find their right "fits" and then I am there to help facilitate the admissions and application process which many find to be overwhelming. I can devote undivided attention, when a school guidance counselor may be assigned too many students, as well as many responsitbilities other than college counseling. After all, there is a purpose for guidance counselors with regard to college admission, right? An independent counselor is doing the same thing though can provide unlimited individualized help. Some seek private services for that, just like some choose private schools, or other services. Many parents can fulfill this role without using a counselor, and that's really great as well. Look at all the involved and supportive parents on CC who are doing just that.</p>
<p>You wrote:
[quote]
I feel very sorry for the kid in the story. She doesn't know Stanford very well, but somehow, she just has to go to Stanford. People should just leave her alone.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I only feel sorry for that girl because of the attitude of that counselor. Otherwise, I don't feel sorry for her at all. This girl is like my oldest D. Nobody is persuading her to apply to Stanford or the like. She WANTS to go there. She has worked hard in school and is internally motivated. My D was the same. We never suggested colleges or cared which one she chose. She is not a prestige grubber. She doesn't care about designer clothing. She did not feel whatsoever a strong desire to attend an Ivy. She even preferred some lower ranked schools over particular Ivies, for example. She also has never viewed or is unaware of college rankings. But she did want to go to a selective challenging school given the type of learner that she is. The name of the school wasn't as important to her as it being the right learning environment for her. And that is what she sought. She was left alone. But when she wanted assistance with her process, we were there for her. And so it is in my role as a counselor as well.</p>
<p>Susan, your post 2 was all about Julie as a "candidate" for schools. </p>
<p>What about Julie as a person?</p>
<p>That gets lost. </p>
<p>That's what the author was trying to convey. What about the person?</p>
<p>How is Susan missing the big picture, Dstark? She's dead on about the counselor only thinking about her rep, not the kid. Aren't you projecting when you state that Julie doesn't know anything about Stanford? </p>
<p>The college counselor sounds like a vulture--hope this publicity kills her business.</p>
<p>And I hope Julie applied early to Stanford and got in...I'd love to hear that "so there"!</p>
<p>people should apply to everyone they want to apply to. so what if they have low chances? it's their dream and their right. this is why YOUR college dreams should not depend on someone else (in this case, a selfish greedy private counselor who is not willing to encourage a kid to aim high)</p>
<p>Garland, you just want to argue, right?</p>
<p>No, I'm not projecting about her knowledge of Stanford.</p>
<p>Is the big picture the counselor, or the welfare of the girl?</p>
<p>Is the big picture getting into particular colleges, or the well being of the kids?</p>
<p>Dstark, I already have said that I don't agree at all with Vera, the counselor in the excerpt. </p>
<p>I have also said the big picture IS the girl. </p>
<p>Julie, the person, is not lost. Julie is like my D who was a person in HS and still is. All of her choices in school and outside of school were done out of interest and motivation. None of her choices, other than to do well academically, were with college in mind. However, come junior year of HS, she had to look into colleges. Come senior year, she officially became a college candidate, like it or not. She used her college apps to show the person she had become. The person she had become was all out of pure interest and not with college admissions in mind. Her application documented who she was as a person. What she did to get there was what she would have done even if she was never gonna go to college. Her pursuits back in HS still continue now in college. She does what she does cause she loves what she does. Julie sounds similar. And I hope she got into Stanford or any of the other schools she was interested in despite the discouragement of Vera, so there. :D</p>
<p>Particular colleges are not the big picture. The well being of the kids is. I am satisfied to say that both of my kids are VERY happy at their respective colleges and for that, I am so glad. I didn't care where they went to school, only that they'd be happy with the choices they were given and that they'd enjoy their schools once they got there and that has happened. What more could a parent want? And in my job as a counselor, if I can help guide another kid to find a school that is the right fit and be ultimately happy with their choice, it is very satisfying.</p>
<p>By the way, please do not presume that every kid who gets assistance from a counselor is doing so to get into highly selective colleges. For example, some of my clients are attending Hofstra, Emerson, UMass, Sarah Lawrence, Marymount Manhattan, Roosevelt University, NYU/Tisch, Bucknell, and yes, Brown.</p>
<p>lol in this article, it's more like the student is caught in the counselor's race to get ahead :D</p>
<p>Jimbob wrote:
[quote]
lol in this article, it's more like the student is caught in the counselor's race to get ahead
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree! :p</p>
<p>No, not just trying to argue. I felt for the kid. That's all.</p>
<p>I feel a lot of assumptions are being made that a kid who does well and who is internally driven and actively engaged in a myriad of pursuits is necessarily doing it all to get into particular colleges. I imagine there are some who have that as their sole motivation. But I don't think that is the case for all accomplished kids. I think many of them truly are "people', not just candidates. I think many are doing things out of pure interest, passion, and desire for what they do. As I said, I have a kid like Julie. This discussion, and the remarks by dstark about kids like this.....brought to mind my older D's guidance counselor report/rec for colleges. I recalled a small piece of it that dealt with this very thing. I just went down into my basement to the cartons where my D filed away all things college admissions related and dug it out. </p>
<p>I will just share this small excerpt on this point, even though it is a two page recommendation....</p>
<p>"Two years ago, I was not certain if I really knew this special young lady. I would watch her, listen to her, see her go about her life, excelling in everything she did. I saw this young sophomore in, what I thought, was a jumble of academics, athletics, government, music, dance, and independent studies. I never saw her ruffled, just that meticulous approach and I wondered if she was happy or if she was driven. So, I asked her if she enjoyed everything she did and I watched her eyes. They lit up and her response was a simple "yes". It was then that I saw the true total commiment to a wide variety of opportunities and activities that this young lady possessed. And it was then that I knew that she was the best I have ever seen at 'name of HS'. "......
"Every word, every thought, every action that this young lady has is done with pure desire and passion for what the world around her offers."</p>
<p>So, what I mean is that not all kids are purely candidates striving for particular colleges but are people who are genuinely interested in many activities which they pursue with drive for their own sake, not to get into X college. The girl in the story sounds a lot like this to me. It is sad that the counselor tried to "break" her into thinking she wasn't someone special or interesting. Quite different than the reaction my D's counselor had to a very similar sort of girl.</p>
<p>One difference between Julie's experience and my own D's is that my D had no pressure from outside sources as to which colleges she was applying to. She did not discuss colleges with peers and this is not a competitive community like the one in the excerpt. In fact, she was the only student from her class to go to ANY Ivy League school. I don't think this topic came up among peers until May of senior year when people were talking of where they were headed after graduation.</p>
<p>That story really doesn't quite ring true to me. Here's what I take from it that I believe:</p>
<p>(1) There was an extreme disconnect between Julie's expectations and the counselor's. I doubt the counselor said anything like "The best you can do is GW," but I'll bet Julie heard her advice to consider safeties that way. Whether the problem was the counselor's communication style, Julie's sense of entitlement, or something of both . . . I guess I'll have to read the book.</p>
<p>(2) Of course the counselor thought about her reputation. Welcome to the world. It was not necessarily a bad call for the counselor to decline to work with a student who was really not willing to get on the same page with her, and the involvement of a journalist certainly wouldn't make that any better. The counselor was probably right in guessing that Julie would make a better heroine, and the counselor a better villain, for the eventual story.</p>
<p>(3) Obviously, it's probably not completely fictional that the counselor is a bit of a jerk.</p>
<p>(4) I don't get why parents would hire a private college counselor for a student like Julie. (Maybe one of you private college counselors can explain it.) She is a straightforward, achieving, privileged kid from a sophisticated school. 100 more SAT points and she probably gets into any number of top schools. (An SAT tutor -- that I could see. But we don't know the background there.) But I don't know what value a private college counselor is going to add in the fall of 12th grade here, other than to adjust her expectations to make certain that she hedges her Stanford bet. Presumably, Julie talks to other kids, though, so she would pick that up pretty quickly, too. Anyway, there's lots of cluelessness running around this story.</p>
<ol>
<li> What any reasonably experienced parent would tell Julie: Take your shot, if you want, but you can't count on getting into Stanford. Applying ED, if you can afford it, is a powerful way to improve your chances of getting into one college you love, but you may be wasting your silver bullet on a target that's too remote. What is it that you love about Stanford? What do you love that Stanford doesn't have (e.g., if you're not being recruited yet, you're not going to be running track at Stanford)? Can you look for some of those qualities in other schools too? You need to be prepared to love someplace else if you don't get into Stanford, and maybe if you find some other places you love you will think about using your ED shot more efficiently at one of them.</li>
</ol>
<p>JHS wondered:
[quote]
I don't get why parents would hire a private college counselor for a student like Julie. (Maybe one of you private college counselors can explain it.)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think this is a valid question. You see, many parents like yourself, myself, and many who participate on CC don't find a need for their child to work with an independent counselor. Many kids either have a very effective college counselor at school and/or parents who are involved, are knowledgeable (look at all the parents who read CC!), and take the time and effort to support and guide their child through this process. Some kids are resourceful and fine on their own too. </p>
<p>However, many families find the college selection and application process overwhelming. A skilled college counselor can facililtate planning, exploring options, and careful preparation to meet the student's best interests. An experienced counselor can serve as a student's personal resource in identifying colleges that best "fit" a student's specific preferences, personality and individual needs and guide the student in presenting his/her unique accomplishments, talents and abiilities in the bset possible way to increase the probability of admission. A qualified independent counselor can devote undivided attention, when a school guidance counselor may be assigned too many students, as well as many responsibilities other than college counseling. Some parents, for whatever reason, do not put in the time or effort to work with their kids. Some feel lost and helpless and just not knowledgeable about the process and seek out someone who has some expertise to assist their child. Some find that it is hard to work with their own kid and that an interested third party may work smoother. Some kids are looking into specialized admissions that their parents or guidance counselor know nothing about...I have a lot of students in this situation. Some just are not aware of all the options and/or how to go about the process and seek help. All types of students and parents seek this kind of help out. THe counselor doesn't get the student into college. The student has to get herself into college. The counselor can be a guide through the entire process and some find that a sense of less stress, to have that sort of facilitation and guidance. For whatever reason, some parents seek support from outside help. You could say the same of an SAT tutor. Some study on their own for standardized tests. Some get parental assistance. Some take a prep course. Some get at private tutor. Not everyone needs or wants the outside assistance but if they do, there are folks who have the background to assist them.</p>
<p>When I read the article this morning I figured that it would eventually end up here as a discussion topic.</p>
<p>I agree with most posters that the article presented the college counselor in a very poor light. It is very easy to bat a thousand if all you are hitting are lobs over home plate. Ms.Vera's unwillingness to take on Julie's challenge for fear of her reputation is malpractice. Unfortunately is seems that anyone can hang out a cc shingle in an attempt to lure unsuspecting families. Susan, it there anything afoot about licensing or pre-qualifying people wanting to go into this field? Or some kind of professional organization which can monitor their member practicioners?</p>
<p>Anyway, I enjoyed how Julie responded at the end of the exerpt. If I was an adcom her application would most certainly get a look-see by the comittee at large!!</p>
<p>I thought Julie was an ideal candidate for Stanford! GW? wow! Not to belittle a good school, but Julie is more competitive than that!</p>
<p>Oh, and she wanted publicity? She got it; and so has Katherine Cohen! Let them enjoy their 15 minutes of fame (or infamy).</p>
<p>The net-net is that is overall this is a work of fiction. Personally, I think that if this book is like er last book Pledged where she wrote about sororities, it could be a bit over the top and she has used a bit of creative license.</p>
<p>Why do you say it's fiction?</p>