<p>I didn't mean to question why anyone would hire a private college counselor ever. There are tons of kids who could use one, and if their parents can find one and afford it, great! But this girl -- she's right down the pike! She's a top student at a top suburban high school (with, it seems, well-to-do parents). She can apply wherever she wants; all she needs are two or three colleges to love where her SAT scores won't get in her way as much as they might at Stanford, and where her many fabulous qualities would shine. And it's not like her SATs are actually low, either; they're fine. I can't believe that her school GC, a decent college guide (of which she and her friends doubtless have about 30 copies), and Bethesda street-corner scuttlebutt wouldn't serve her just fine.</p>
<p>JHS, I know what you mean and as a parent, I couldn't see it really either. But who really knows. Maybe she lives in a community where everyone uses private counselors and SAT tutors and all that. There may be types who can afford it and just want the extra hand holding and/or some expertise. The environment of their school sounds competitive and so there may be a bit of a frenzy in the school community over college admissions. From this little excerpt, I almost think this girl would have been better off without a counselor because the counselor discouraged her too much from applying to some reasonable reach schools given her credentials. It is one thing to lay it out to the family the very difficult odds but she is still a valid candidate for the schools on her list. She should have been guided to create a balanced list, that's all. Even with very good guidance counselors, however, the kind of one to one ongoing unlimited guidance that an indep. counselor can provide is often something the school counselor doesn't have the luxury to do. Many do not need it. Parental support and inner resourcefulness is what many of our kids have had and it has been enough. Still, all sorts of students may benefit from someone who can guide them. For many, it will be knowledgeable moms or dads who read CC (lol) and for others, a third party of some sort. Despite this girl being a good student and strong in many areas, she could still be mixed up and needing guidance. I have some strong students too who just are unsure with the college list or direction to go into with their interests and also some who are simply overwhelmed with the application process, etc. They likely could have gotten by on their own or with mom or dad's help but many claim they could not have done it without me. Some need that extra "support" through it, what can I say. And some parents, for whatever reason, are not like some of us who are there every step of the way....they are too "busy" or just not knowledgeable about it and haven't taken the time to research these things like so many of us here have done. I mean I have a client this year whose mom is a teacher at our school and the D is a rising senior and hasn't even taken the SATs yet! All of us who participate here seem to start looking into all this by junior year of HS but I have had clients who have started creating a college list, started testing, started apps as late as Nov. of senior year! You'd be surprised of all the types of situations. So, I can't explain the girl in the excerpt but maybe in their community, getting private help is the common thing to do, dunno. I do believe that all types of families and students can benefit though. I worked with someone applying ED to an Ivy this year who had EVERYTHING going for him but there was still the uncertainty, many questions to be asked, and guidance regarding the essays ,and so they hired me to help on a small part of his process. We all observe very strong students who come to the Parent Forum asking for help with this or that with regard to their admissions process. So, there are kids out there like that wanting help and maybe they do not get it enough from mom/dad or a GC. And then there are others who are weak students, or those looking into specialty type programs like theater whose guidance counselors and parents are uninformed about those special admissions processes. I realize that Julie doesn't fit that description but I have seen everything. </p>
<p>We didn't look into anything like thiws with our own children, but I understand those that do, can afford to, can't or won't do it themselves for whatever reason. Julie likely didn't NEED a private counselor but the family wanted one. In most situations, it can be helpful and a support, but in the vignette in the article, it was a real downer for that kid, I think. My daughter wrote me a letter once thanking me for all the help and support I gave her with the college process and she only wished her peers at school who were totally lost in this process with parents unable or unwilling to help like this could have had my help too. Not all parents are like the ones on CC, no matter the level of college candidate we are talking about!</p>
<p>My bad, I should have said that it's a novel as Robbin writes a narrative on the using the profiles of 8 students: four juniors, three seniors and one alum who’s a college freshman and writes about their experience with the college process.</p>
<p>Yes, this girl is "right down the pike" with her "package". But that is one reason to get some assistance as to how to present her package to showcase her wonderful qualities so that she doesn't look exactly like every other candidate who is "right down the pike". How one does the applications can have an influence on the admisions outcome. There are zillions of books on how to do this well...for a reason. A skilled counselor can help an applicant present herself and show who she is in the best possible way to increase the probability of admission. Precisely candidates like Julie who are similar to other very strong candidates for admission at schools with low admit rates, do need to present a well done application. How that is done...is something that many kids can benefit from advice with, even the Julie types.</p>
<p>PS, for a lot of us, we just read CC and learn how to go about this that way! :D</p>
<p>Yes, I'll grant you that. Some expert advice on her application might help. The counselor was probably miffed that it was too late to tell her to spend the summer building homeless shelters in Burundi. (In case anyone's laughing, I have a young relative who just spent the summer doing that in Vietnam. To buff up his Stanford app.)</p>
<p>At my kids' HS, SAT Is by spring of junior year are mandatory. PSATs are mandatory in 9th, 10th, and 11th grade! The GCs are not very good -- they are mainly responsible for managing paperwork and dealing with the few kids who can't get it together at all to apply anywhere. But the equivalent kids to "Julie" spend countless hours discussing application strategies and comparing notes. It's a rare kid who develops unrealistic expectations or fails to navigate the process more or less well.</p>
<p>You are right, JHS, that this particular counselor (Vera) may have been the sort who likes to "mold" the applicant, as opposed to merely advising an applicant and taking them for who they are. If she was the molding type, she would have considered summer prior to senior year as "too late". The majority of my advisees come to me senior year, so she'd hate that, lol. </p>
<p>I can't understand why a local girl whose mom teaches at our school has yet to take the SATs and she is a rising senior. I think it is fear of the test but you can't avoid them! She apparently took a course (I doubt a very good one...I have a feeling just an after school thing at our school because she had never even taken a practice SAT test under timed conditions to get a baseline ....which makes my estimation of her chances at schools at this point in time iffy without that measure to evaluate). I really see all sorts of situations. Someone may hire a counselor who is in a very competitive college environment....they can afford to get outside help and they do, as people do with other sorts of things. Then there are those like some around here who haven't a clue and could USE the help! </p>
<p>And let's remember all the parents and students participating on CC who often are really good students applying to some very selective schools who are looking for advice all the time! For many, CC's boards are enough! But that need exists. Some opt to pay for it.</p>
<p>The NYT did a piece on "The Overachievers" by Alexandra Robbins in the Sunday book review section, calling it "part soap opera and part social treatise". </p>
<p>
[quote]
But Robbins gets the big picture right. Yes, this is a terrible time to be applying to college. With too many talented students vying for too few spots at a handful of top schools, we shouldnt be surprised that many are buckling under the pressure to be perfect. There are signs that the tide is turning, starting with colleges themselves. Fed up with the hegemony of the College Board and the predations of some private college counselors, more schools are making the submission of SAT scores optional, and adding application questions that invite students to talk about what they do for fun. From a Stanford admissions officer: Its that idea of packaging and coaching, students trying so hard to make themselves stand out were not able to see how they really are. There are no life experiences that would get you into Stanford. Its not what youve done; its how youve experienced whatever has happened to you.
<p>
[quote]
Fed up with the hegemony of the College Board and the predations of some private college counselors, more schools are making the submission of SAT scores optional, and adding application questions that invite students to talk about what they do for fun.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But this is precisely the bit that the hired counselors can mold! A motivated student who does not have the financial wherewithal can prep for the SAT with just an expense of $40. The hired counselors a la Katherine Cohen or Michele Hernandez cost $30k. I'd rather stick with the SAT, thank you.</p>
<p>Marite, you definitely have a point. I have read about the "molding" that the very very high priced counselors do starting at a young age, certainly by the start of high school and so all this extra stuff from admissons offices about life's experiences and all, could feed right into what those counselors will mold the kids to do. </p>
<p>The reason I like Julie in the anecdote in the article....and I am biased, is she reminded me of my own kid who exceled but did her own thing, her own passions, was well rounded (though well lopsided is good too) and wasn't unique, just a very solid strong candidate. And my heart sank when reading the "breaking" of that girl in the article as if what she had done with her life wasn't good enough. I think a wise counselor SHOULD be truthful and caution a kid about the reality of selective college admissions and their chances and all, but that counselor was so discouraging and didn't even want Julie to apply to those selective schools at all when in my view, she stood a chance....granted the odds are tough these days, but clearly she was a candidate who could and should (if she wants to) apply to SOME schools that are more selective than GW. It is one thing to be realistic and honest and another to be so discouraging and negative about such a strong student across the board like Julie was. Like I said, my kid didn't cure cancer, was not in the Olympics, wasn't an Intel winner, didn't play an unusual instrument or unusual EC, didn't go to Burundi, etc. and she got into almost all of her schools and many were highly selective. We all know the odds are tough and unpredictable but a very good student with very strong stats and very strong ECs and accomplishments and personal qualities, etc. at least stands a chance at selective schools. Obviously a balanced list is needed. </p>
<p>We have discussed the high end counselors on CC before and I am honestly NOT into the molding that some do. I think it should be about guiding and supporting and taking the kid for who she is and helping her to show herself as best as she can, but NOT create who she is to "look good". A lot of that stuff turns me off. You are right that if the colleges switch to some other "criteria" or means of "assessment", the molders will find a way to create whatever that is.</p>
<p>Has anybody considered the possibility that the counselor's evaluation of Julie's chances at Stanford may have been correct?</p>
<p>The counselor zeroed in on a question that seems to be quite important for applicants who come from high schools that produce a lot of very well-qualified graduates, namely: Who else at the same school is applying to the college(s) that the applicant has chosen, and how do those students' credentials compare to the applicant's? These other students are the applicant's direct competition. There has to be some sort of unwritten limit on how many kids a college will take from the same high school, and the existence of such limits works against kids who come from really top schools.</p>
<p>Julie's high school, Walt Whitman, serves a very affluent area in Maryland that produces large numbers of top students. The average SAT score at Walt Whitman is about 1250 on the old 1600 scale -- more than 200 points over the national average. Whitman routinely produces between 15 and 20 National Merit Semifinalists per year -- despite the fact that it is in a district that has two highly selective, nationally known academic magnet programs that skim off many of the students who would otherwise have been at the top of the class in their local high schools.</p>
<p>In other words, even though Julie goes to a seemingly ordinary public school, she's playing in the big leagues. Whether she likes it or not.</p>
<p>The brutal fact is that at least two better-qualified candidates from Whitman are applying to Stanford. Julie's SAT scores are not spectacular (especially by Walt Whitman standards). She is probably not going to be one of Whitman's numerous National Merit Semifinalists. And her extracurricular record is notable more for the quantity of her activities than for any achievements at the state or national level. She does not appear to be a recruited athlete, a Stanford legacy, an underrepresented minority, or any other kind of unusual applicant who would receive special consideration. There are other kids at Whitman who have more to offer Stanford than she does, including the two she mentioned.</p>
<p>Julie sounds like a great kid. A wonderful kid. An asset to any college that's lucky enough to get her. But is she going to be able to get into Stanford from Walt Whitman? I don't think so. I think the counselor was right.</p>
<p>The counselor may have been right to be cautious about Julie's chances at Stanford; but she sounds like she wants to work only with sure bets. I personally think that a counselor should be frank about a student's prospects; help the student develop a list of reach, match and safety schools; then help the student present the best case to every single one of the schools.<br>
If the student scored 800 on the SAT and wanted to apply to HYPSM, that would be different. But Julie, to my mind, had a good chance at Stanford. HYPSM do not admit only perfect 1600s, and they also turn down 1600s. Some students have been admitted to HYPSM with SAT scores lower than Julie's.
Why do you think that being from Whitman reduces her chances at Stanford? Because 2 kids have higher scores? Does Stanford limit the number of admits from good schools such as Whitman to such an extent?</p>
<p>I did not see your post before I responded to Marian's. We are in agreement. And even without professional counselors, there is absolutely no guarantee that an essay purporting to show the "real' student is the work of that student. Too many hands in that particular pot. At least, no matter how much coaching is done, so far, I have not read of SAT tutors impersonating students when the actual SAT is administered. However much prepping is done, in the end, it is the student who is taking the SAT. Essays, however, could be written entirely by someone else-- and judging from the quality of writing that comes out of colleges, including top ones, they may have been!</p>
<p>When my daughter and I attended an information session at Columbia, someone specifically asked the admissions officer whether there was a limit on the number of students that a selective school like Columbia would take from a single high school. The admissions officer said, "Well, there's no official limit, but we're certainly not going to take 50 people from Stuyvesant, if that's what you mean." </p>
<p>Stuyvesant, for those who don't know, is the most selective of the New York City exam schools (science/math magnet schools to which students are admitted through a competitive exam). It graduates 800 students each year. Way more than 50 of those 800 are qualified to attend Columbia.</p>
<p>This admissions officer essentially confirmed the existence of quotas -- at least as they pertain to schools with a lot of well-qualified applicants. Do we have any reason to think that things are any different at Stanford than they are at Columbia?</p>
<p>marian: i would actually take that statement in a completely different way. the officer is trying to reassure prospective applicants that columbia DOESN'T fill up its class with kids from prestigious local privates.</p>
<p>Stuyvesant isn't private. It's a public magnet school. I'm not sure whether that is important.</p>
<p>I guess a listener's response to the admissions officer's statement depends on who you are. I am a parent of a kid who goes to a magnet school -- not in NYC, but near enough geographically so that many kids from her school apply to Columbia. What that admissions officer said certainly didn't reassure me about my daughter's chances. But you're right, for some of the families in the room whose circumstances are different, the statement may have been reassuring (or at least it would have been, except that this particular admissions officer was the sort who seemed to be trying hard to convey the message, "You people seriously think you're good enough for Columbia? Get real, losers! We use your applications to line our birdcages.")</p>
<p>There is a difference between admitting 5 and 50 students from the same school, whether it is a public magnet or a private prep school. From the article, I did not think that Julie had to compete with 50 other students from Whitman, but if she had, she was in the top 3.</p>
<p>Marian, don't worry about it. Penn admitted over a dozen kids from my old school (it's not in PA), and both Harvard and MIT took 4 (actually, 4 decided to go to Harvard and 4 to MIT...more got in)...those are big numbers so even if Columbia won't take 4 dozen kids, it will certainly not have too low of a ceiling</p>