Are the classes harder? Or is it just harder to GET in??

Parents Forum
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<p>
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This is one misinformed person.

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My H and I and all three of our children attended top 20 schools both for undergrad and grad school. When I started taking on student interns in my work, I couldn't believe the lack of preparedness of many students compared to my own academic experience. </p>

<p>My children's experience is that our state flagship doesn't even offer many of the courses that they have taken at their respective schools, never mind the fact that they are being taught by some of the leaders in their fields. This is especially true of my S who is a math major. Even the graduate school at our state flagship could not have offered him the course work he has taken as an undergrad. </p>

<p>All of my kids have described their coursework as "hard." I have friends whose kids are not academically inclined who have gone to colleges where they describe the course work as "easy" and 'like high school."</p>

<p>Having observed this over the years, I'm glad to see that someone started this discussion because it is an important issue.</p>

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<p>I, of course, was basing my information on schools like HYPS.</p>

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<p>
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No, they are not hard. To keep the high GPA of their students, these schools inflate their grades so everyone will get A's and B's.</p>

<p>"The elite schools are much more difficult academically. It is true that the material they cover is similar to other schools, but the class moves at a faster pace. The exams are also extremely challenging in many subject areas, and as someone else has just stated the curves can be brutal. So while almost everyone passes and can graduate, it's often difficult to get high grades."</p>

<p>This is one misinformed person. This is totally not true. First of all, there are no curves, there is no competition, and everyone get A's or B's. C is quite rare.

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<p>This is fairly incorrect. Firstly most colleges in terms do it differently. Some colleges either on a departmental level or overall require professors to enforce a specific usually aimed at somewhere around a C to B level for the middle of the curve. Many other times professors will implement their own curve as they see fit. </p>

<p>In my experience at a pretty highly selective college, I've seen many different grading policies used, sometimes within the same department. In an intro Comp Sci class, no curve was enforced and nearly the entire class did very well A's and B+s's. In a far more advanced and difficult Comp Sci class, where the class average was incredibly low (around 45 -50ish) a 75 became a B and 80 or better an A, with class grades adjusted around a C average. Also in an intro poli sci class, where the entire class did fairly well, a harsher curve was implemented to restrict As to only the top 10% of the class, so that 92 - 95 was an A- and 95 or better was an A. So grading varies by professor and college.</p>

<p>In general classes at elite colleges tend to be far more difficult in my experience. As senior in high school I took advanced Calc II at a local university and aced it. In college, a heavy research oriented school, I struggled with Calc and even non calc based math like discrete math, because the classes were far more theoretical and complex. The majority of my classes have been tough and challenging, and if I attended that local university where I took classes in high school, I'm pretty certain the quality and difficulty would have differed.</p>

<p>Also even at HYP, grade inflation has been coming under intense scrutiny.</p>

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<p>I_M, thanks for sharing. While your comparison of a local state U Vs HYPSM is interesting. I would really like to see similar comparison between an honor program at a flag state U to those of HYPSM. I suspect the difference may be minor, if any.</p>

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<p>At our house we've attended the top publics in three states with top-ranked departments in our fields and two Ivys, where we also taught social science courses. </p>

<p>In our experience, the reading material in top departments differs dramatically from what is offered at lower tier schools, public and private. There is a lot more reading and from a lot more primary sources; there is less use of textbooks and the ones chosen are more challenging and there is a lot less teaching from a textbook. Students at both levels are expected to do a lot more writing as well.</p>

<p>We have seen grad students who came from lesser college departments struggle and we have seen undergrads who weren't well-prepared in high school struggle in college. Recruited athletes without proper high school preparation had the hardest time and were the only students we taught at the Ivys who were at true risk of flunking out at these schools.</p>

<p>As an example from my own education, in 1976, in my freshman intro political science class at the top public in the country we had no textbook, only primary source reading. I reread many of the same texts in graduate school at an Ivy.</p>

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<p>If the level of the students is the same in both an honors program and an elite university, the course will be roughly the same.</p>

<p>Students are less prepared in general for several reasons. First is that they have been allowed to pass from one grade to another in high school whether they know anything or not. Secondly, there is a lot of pressure on profs to curve grades. When I went to school (eons ago), if the whole class failed - tough luck. Today, students complain, their parents complain, the administrators complain etc. The attitude is the student is the "consumer" - make them happy!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I_M, thanks for sharing. While your comparison of a local state U Vs HYPSM is interesting. I would really like to see similar comparison between an honor program at a flag state U to those of HYPSM. I suspect the difference may be minor, if any.

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<p>Fair enough. That completely changes the field for comparison. It depends on the quality and size of you local university but most state school honor's programs are quite amazing. For example, I'm from NJ, and Rutgers or TCNJ's honors programs are very rigorous and competitive compared to other local smaller colleges. In fact, TCNJs premed program boasts it is about as hard to get into, if not harder, than most top schools. In general, I believe the honors programs of state universities have ivy caliber students who chose not attend more selective colleges for financial or other reasons. Also I suggest you look into the particular features of the honor's program which many times might be the better option. I know for our states honors programs, students are often offered more opportunities and resources. They develop closer relationships with their professors and are individually mentored which pays off in longer run in terms of grad school or job opportunities, since they are the big fish in the small pond at the local universities.</p>

<p>If you want specific examples, my friend is current an honors bio student at Rutgers and is doing amazing. As a sophomore she conducting her own independent research and snatched a real competitive internship over the summer thanks to her prof's great letter of recommendation. Her classes as just as competitive as our classes in the honors track because the program also boasts high med school acceptance rates equal if not better than ours.</p>

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<p>Back in the 80s my husband got his undergrad engineering degree from Cal, and his masters degree in engineering from Stanford. He found the classes at Stanford much easier than the classes at Cal. It was his impression that at Cal, if you wanted to pass it was up to you. At Stanford the university would work hard to ensure you don't fail. Now, he never got below an A at Stanford, so I'm not sure what he was basing this assessment on.</p>

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<p>
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This is one misinformed person. This is totally not true. First of all, there are no curves, there is no competition, and everyone get A's or B's. C is quite rare.

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<p>Tell that to students at Wharton. All their classes are curved. Many students describe their experience there as somewhat of " a pressure cooker." C's are plentiful.</p>

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<p>There ARE curves at Harvard and Princeton. And only the top students in classes receive A's these days. Princeton established an official grade deflation policy a few years ago to combat the frequency of high GPAs. If you google the topic you can read many articles in the Daily Princetonian written by frustrated students. The faculty is instructed that they can only give out A's to a small percentage in each class, and the final course grades are reviewed by deans so the faculty does not slide around the rule.</p>

<p>If there are not a lot of C's and D's it may because of the work ethic and culture of achievement of these schools.
Naturally, this policy worries students who compete against other college students for graduate, med, law and business schools.</p>

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<p>News article about rarity of straight-A grade averages at Harvard: </p>

<p>FresnoBee.com:</a> Local: Local Harvard grad gets a rare 4.0 GPA</p>

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<p>wisedad, for an entry level gen ed political science class at Harvard we read tons and tons of primary sources. No textbook either.</p>

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<p>Agree with fauve, my D is at Y, they most definitely have curved grades; no more than 20% As in her biochem course.</p>

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<p>
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I, of course, was basing my information on schools like HYPS.

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</p>

<p>Two of my kids are currently students at HYPS. They both tell me the classes are HARD. It may be difficult to flunk out, but the classes require a tremendous amount of work and the exams, especially in the sciences classes, are extremely difficult.</p>

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<p>
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I would really like to see similar comparison between an honor program at a flag state U to those of HYPSM.

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</p>

<p>That's the kind of comparison I am making. That's what I'm comparing as I consider the college application list of my oldest son.</p>

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<p>I think, most definitely, elite school classes are more rigorous. Why? Because, in general, the students are smarter. Do not get mad folks, but we are not all created equal, except maybe in the eyes of the law. This is not just my opinion, but my observation as an educator at a state college for 19 years. Students with 2100+ SAT's perform better in the class than students with 1700 SAT's. BUT-- only if the student is motivated, i.e. comes to class, reads what is required, does the work, etc.</p>

<p>As a parent of 3 children in college, I can also personally attest to this on this level as well. My S attends an elite LAC but had to take a medical leave. He attended our state school for a semester and easily got straight A's in advanced courses with what seemed little effort and not anywhere near the required work. He does not have straight A's at his college.</p>

<p>My oldest D attends an Ivy. She is currently taking a course at her school that I teach at our state school. My D's school uses a higher level text that goes into much more depth than I teach. It is a 100 level course.</p>

<p>As someone else on this thread stated, you should teach to the level (NOT saying do not challenge) of your student. Honors programs probably do just that.</p>

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<p>tokenadult,</p>

<p>I have never heard a description of a public school honors program that equals the kind of undergraduate education that students at HYPSM automatically obtain. Money buys perks, both educational and quality of life.</p>

<p>From our experiences and those of our family members at several of those, here are a few differences we observed at the top privates:</p>

<p>1) The classes are easier to get into, so you can study what you want on your own schedule and be confident of graduating on time, no twisting yourself into a pretzel or special pleading necessary. You can take graduate-level classes with ease if you are ready.</p>

<p>2) The classes are smaller and there are fewer TAs and more professors teaching and the university is much more responsive to complaints about TAs who can't speak English well enough to teach. And since the grad students at these places generally get more of everything, too, they are more relaxed and more helpful teachers to their undergrad students.</p>

<p>3) Students get better advising and more hand-holding in general. The school wants you to succeed and graduate on time. Publics have students waiting in line to get in, especially to honors programs, so they don't really care if you flunk out.</p>

<p>4) Decent, and sometimes great, housing is generally guaranteed for all four years. Food options are abundant and often arranged to enhance social and intellectual interaction between students and faculty. The value of these "quality of life" perks in reducing stress and enhancing the intellectual experience should not be underestimated.</p>

<p>5) Internships and research opportunities are liberally offered and promoted to all students, with many fewer hoops to jump through to get them.</p>

<p>6) The student-led organizations at these campuses are of near-professional quality, in addition to being numerous. The vast majority of students are engaged in at least one of these groups. The amount of time and energy undergrads at these schools regularly spend on these high-quality EC experiences is not like anything we saw at the top publics.</p>

<p>That said, S is applying to several publics in addition to some fine privates. The diversity and size at publics makes going to school at them something like living in a big city (and some of them are in exciting major cities) instead of a small town. There are students who thrive on that energy. The privates have dominant cultures that turn some students off.</p>

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<p>There are easy classes at HYPS, but on the whole, the standards are very high, particularly in the upper-level classes that are required in each major.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I would really like to see similar comparison between an honor program at a flag state U to those of HYPSM. I suspect the difference may be minor, if any.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, the differences are still pretty big. Like I say I'm taking this from my Ds experience of being in an Honors college of a top 4 public freshman year and a very selective private this year. One thing with (at least her) honors college, is that kids usually only take a couple of honors courses or honors sections of courses each semester, but even then, the competition was not as keen. Her exact words this semester in the private were: "This is the first time my grades have ever been threatened". She told me this summer that freshman year she only sat down to write her papers the night before they were due; she says she's not able to do that this year and still expect to keep her grades up. The positive aspect is that at least she's getting out of her habit of procrastinating ;).</p>

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<p>Husband teaches in a science field at a public flagship. He says the quality and breadth of course offerings far exceeds what he experienced as an undergrad and grad student at an ivy. He says there are more poor to average students at the state school, but the top students are far superior to any he saw at his ivy. The number of large classes, TA's, and disinterested professors are no different at ivy or state school.</p>