<p>I do not have anything against MIT. It is known to be awesome, very highly ranked in all aspects and exceptionally hard. Exceptionally high caliber students would be able to get high GPAs there if they work hard enough. But for average person with aspiration for engineering or medicine, who is concerned with difficulty of the program, MIT might be not the best route. That is all I meant. In regard to opportunities for pre-meds, with rare exceptions, you can major in anything you wish anywhere and other opportunities are available everywhere also, it is up to a kid to participate, get hired, and so forth. The top students actually might have more opportunities at state school, being noticed more. This will apply to any opportunities in any major, leadership, research opportunities. This is based on my D's experience who is sophmore pre-med at state school in Honors and who is challenged much more than she anticipated after graduating at the top of her HS class. Her engineering major friends are very challenged also. These are also top students in honors program, and some of them needed to use tutoring just to keep up.</p>
<p>The average person is not going to get accepted by MIT. That said, I've heard some grumblings that it is slightly harder to get into med school because GPAs are slightly lower, but they still have an excellent rate of acceptances to med school. Preprofessional</a> Stats - MIT Careers Office</p>
<p>To borrow a line from Cornelius Vanderbilt, if you have to hope that the classes are not as hard as it is to get in, then it's probably not advisable for you to go there. This applies doubly to MIT or Caltech, but also to the other top universities. I believe that there are a few manageable tracks through most, for anyone who's admitted, but that doesn't mean that every major is manageable for anyone who's admitted. In any event, I don't think that the course work at any of the top schools is as easily managed as you might surmise from George Bush's GPA.</p>
<p>"So same syllabus, same text, different students results in different levels of difficulty. It is true at the same school for classes in and out of honors programs."</p>
<p>Yep, and it's true at the same school during the school year vs. during the summer program, if the summer program draws a different group of kids.</p>
<p>OP, you asked a good question and you got over 80 responeses. Have you got your answer? Could you please share what is your conclusion?</p>
<p>"Yep, and it's true at the same school during the school year vs. during the summer program, if the summer program draws a different group of kids."</p>
<p>It is also true in the same school and same course from 1 year to the next especially with small classes where the student makeup can vary considerably.</p>
<p>In response to Dad II, who asked me what my conclusion is ...</p>
<p>First of all, thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful and smart answers. I really enjoyed reading the responses. I learned a lot about the competitive nature of the Ivys and top schools. I went to University of My State, so I really had no basis to compare. My conclusion is that yes, these top schools ARE more difficult due to the curve, and the competition of the other top students.</p>
<p>I guess the ego in me wanted to believe that my education was just as good, but well... maybe not.</p>
<p>I would just like to note that how "hard" a class is can mean several different things. It can mean how challenging it is, how quickly it moves, how much reading/writing/problem sets, how deep you are required to go into the material, how much mastery of the material is expected, and how much pre-existing knowledge is expected. Note that these things may or may not be directly related to how hard it is to get an A. If a class is graded on a strict curve, it's "hard" to get an A even if the class isn't that challenging. On the other hand, it may be "easy" to get an A as long as you are willing to read a book every week and write a decent 5-page paper every other week.</p>
<p>The discussion of engineering also reminds me that a college education is not just about your major. If you are in a tough major at a state university, but your other courses are not that challenging, is your eduction "hard?" Certainly people at Ivies search for "guts" (or whatever they call them now), but they aren't always easy to find.</p>
<p>"On the other hand, it may be "easy" to get an A as long as you are willing to read a book every week and write a decent 5-page paper every other week."</p>
<p>Right. The hardest course I ever took, hands down, was Japanese. It was uncurved, and it was possible for everyone in the class to get an A. Most of us did -- because most of us spent at least two hours a day drilling, memorizing, in the language lab, etc. Substantial homework every day, quizzes every day, cumulative exams every couple of weeks. It was brutal, and it was awesome.</p>
<p>For me, one of the "hardest" courses was Intensive Beginning Classical Greek, because it met five days a week at 8:30 a.m.
Also, a bad teacher can make a class harder. I had this experience in Calculus, with a teacher who did not speak clearly, and a poor textbook (written by the department head).</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do not have anything against MIT. It is known to be awesome, very highly ranked in all aspects and exceptionally hard. Exceptionally high caliber students would be able to get high GPAs there if they work hard enough.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you are admitted you are certainly among exceptionally high caliber students and most get relatively high GPAs. The median GPA is around 3.2/3.3 or a B+. You will have to work very hard for an A, but again nearly 50% of all grades are As, because most student work very hard. MIT by policy does not curve classes, so theoretically every one can get an A in a class. But also, everyone could a get a C, and some classes give out a lot of Cs.</p>
<p>Is a typical math or science class at MIT harder than at most other colleges? Most definitely. Calculus may be calculus, and the textbooks may be similar, but the pace, workload and tests are not at all typical. Each issue is covered to great depths, you get problem sets that keep you up until 2 AM most nights and tests are routinely 30 pages long with not a single multiple choice question. </p>
<p>My D is a premed at MIT. Would she have been better off at a school where classes would have been easier? She certainly does not think so. She claims she has learned a completely different way of solving problems. As a sophomore, she is already doing advanced research in neuroimaging as a full team member together with grad students and postdocs. It is very unlikely she could have learned as much in as short a time at almost any other place. If you are willing to drink from a firehose, MIT is a great place to be.</p>
<p>I went to a state school. Decided to minor in business in my junior year. Took entry level Accounting, MIS, Finance. OMG...as I later found out...these were weeder classes for the freshman students applying to the business school in sophomore year. More than half of the HUGE lecture class was gone after 6 weeks. I got Cs for the first time in my life and I worked my BUTT off.<br>
In general, I think you can say that classes at an IVY are likely to be harder than a state school. But what state school? What subject? Lower level or upper level classes?
If you're talking upper level classes at UMICH compared to Cornell, I can't believe there would be much difference.
Also, there's been discussion of honors programs. The quality of these programs DO vary and it pays to really check them out. All I can say is that the honors classes my son has taken at our state flagship have been very challenging - with much higher workloads than his regular classes. No, it's not all of his classes each semester (usually 2 or 3) but it does make a big difference. The other observation is that his upper level courses are quite a bit harder than his entry level classes were.
Bottom line, I think it's REALLY hard to make blanket statements here. As for a class difficulty goes, yeah MIT > Cleveland State but is Cornell > UNC? Narrow the schools down to what you like and them check them out...carefully. Sit in on classes. Talk to students. Talk to professors. If a school has an honors program, dig into it...it may be just window dressing or it may make a big difference. Every school is different.</p>