<p>In a race to get an AP Scholar distinction by the end of their junior (or sophomore!) year and a checkmark in the Most Rigorous Curriculum box, top high school students take as many Advanced Placement tests as they can. While I can see some rigor in AP Calc BC, Chem, Bio, Physics C, and may be US History and English, I question the advanced standing of many other APs. Clearly most elite colleges dont think these lesser APs reach college level strength. Very few top colleges award credits to non-core APs. In fact, more and more of these colleges only award credit to 5s on core AP subjects. </p>
<p>Do these AP classes really deserve the Advanced Placement label? Are all National-AP-Scholars the same? Are we selling a pack of lie to our AP students?</p>
<p>I think that if the sample tests given on the collegeboard website are any indication, US Government and Environmental Science are sort of a joke. Maybe that’s because I’m an adult who already went through college, and who has a little bit of political awareness that I didn’t have in high school, but they still seem pretty rudimentary.</p>
<p>I have my own problems with the AP exams and the low percentages necessary to pass, but that’s a different story. When I went to school in the early 70s my hs offered one AP course - US History. But for the heck of it I also took 4 or 5 other tests (can’t remember exactly) based solely on my regular or honors classes. I passed them all with 4 or 5 and got credit for all the courses, but was certainly not ready to skip the college material, which in my case was much harder than the tests.</p>
<p>If the student enjoys the material, where is the harm? A lot of these AP courses draw in interesting students that generate lively class discussions as well. If you get college credit and it frees up your schedule in college, that is a benefit too. I would not recommend having a student rely on AP class material in a major, however.</p>
<p>My DD got a 5 on AP US govt, and several kids at her Sci-tech magnet did not, so Grrr!</p>
<p>Obviously different colleges have different standards, and so they will accept different levels for credit. The AP courses are not only for the tippy top colleges. In general the kids who are shooting for the tippy top schools A. Know exactly which courses will get them credit And B. Are taking the AP courses to strengthen their apps, far more than to get credit.</p>
<p>Yes, this may just seem easy because, now as an adult, I know (and care about) things about the legislative process, or general things about the political system, that I would not have known as a kid. Just from reading or listening to the news and political shows, then looking things up.</p>
<p>But I invite you to take a look at the test and tell me what you think. I think a reasonably aware voter should be able to answer/educated guess about 50% of this, which would probably get you a score of 3 on the test, and college credit some places. I understand the free response may be a little more difficult.</p>
<p>Since CB has college professors on its curriculum panel AND such professors are supposed to design the AP course such that it would be similar to a college course on their own campus, the answer is, “yes”. (Think about it this way: even at Harvard, Calculus and Stats have a much different rigor. Why should the AP courses be any different?)</p>
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<p>I’ve always thought that such CB awards were totally worthless for admissions – it’s marketing and money-making gimmick for CB. A college adcom can see the number of AP’s taken and scores, so they don’t need an AP Award to highlight it for them.</p>
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<p>Which are??? (Public colleges tend to be very generous with AP/IB credit.)</p>
<p>Note: some colleges (such as Stanford and some Ivies) do not offer credit for AP Govt because they don’t offer a similar course on their own campus, not because they don’t think it worthy.</p>
<p>The rigor of the course (not the exam) depends on how it is taught. </p>
<p>As far as elite colleges not accepting the credit – some of this has to do with whether or not the AP curric. is the same as the school’s intro course curric. </p>
<p>If Elite School A accepts a 5 on AP Gov for credit…or for passing out of the intro course, and if Elite School B does not accept a 5 on AP Gov for credit or exemption from intro course — is the Government/Poly Sci program at Elite School B “lesser” than at Elite School A?</p>
<p>I believe that College Board validates their exams and calibrates their grading scale by giving the tests to college students taking the course and comparing with their actual grades. I don’t doubt that the all of the AP courses are equivalent to college courses at some set of colleges, but maybe not the very top ones.</p>
<p>My S was a National AP Scholar after junior year (which was never a goal, just a happy outcome from signing up for the courses he was interested in) but I really doubt that this one line on his application form had much, if any, impact on his college outcomes. Would a college really find a National AP Scholar all that much more desirable than a similar student with 7 APs who just missed the cutoff. </p>
<p>If there is a “lie”, it might be in giving students the impression that these awards, in themselves, mean anything.</p>
<p>Really? Do they publish the results of this validation anywhere? I’d really like to see it. Are they implying that a “5” on the exam equates to an “A” in a typical college course on the same material? Because that certainly wasn’t my experience with the AP tests I passed. The college courses were significantly harder.</p>
<p>For people who maybe don’t feel like downloading the sample AP Government test. Here’s a couple questions -</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The Constitution and its amendments expressly prohibit all of the following
except
(a) slavery
(b) double jeopardy
(c) cruel and unusual punishment
(d) unreasonable searches and seizures
(e) sex discrimination in employment</p></li>
<li><p>In vetoing a bill, the president does which of the following?
(a) Rejects only a part of the bill without rejecting it entirely.
(b) Prevents any further action on the bill.
(c) Sends the bill back to conference committee.
(d) Rejects all sections of the bill.
(e) Decides the bill’s constitutionality.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>There are some harder questions, but most are sort of like this.
Come on people. Do you need a college course to know this stuff?</p>
<p>Bovertine - you need to see more of the “man in the street” interviews. I have seen a few on tv news where they ask random people some very, very basic government questions - like name the 3 branches of our federal government - and the majority could not do so. So, if you think the average reasonably well-educated person could answer the sample questions from the AP exam - I doubt it.</p>
<p>It seems to me that two distinct questions are being conflated here: (1) do the “lesser” AP tests really require a college-level grasp of their subjects to the same degree as the “core” AP tests? and (2) are the subjects of the “lesser” AP tests as academically legitimate or important as the subjects of the “core” tests? </p>
<p>I’ve seen these on Jay Leno. Of course, we don’t know how many people they asked that knew the correct answers. The interviews I’ve seen are always edited, for entertainment sake I assume. And I can pretty much bet the results would be a lot worse if they asked random people to integrate an exponential function.</p>
<p>I don’t think I travel in particularly lofty circles, and most everyone I know could answer these two gvt questions, or make a reasonable guess. But maybe I have a better opinion of the “rabble” than they deserve. That’s why I’d love to see the study mentioned in a post above.</p>
<p>Experience and awareness count for a lot. I’ve got a friend who is a professor at a well-respected-even-here-on-CC university. Many years ago, he ran through the questions that his department (Econ) asked students who were taking the oral exam for their master’s degree. Now, I never took an Econ class in college. I’d been in the working world for a few years, and the spouse and I’d bought our first home. I aced the exam. </p>
<p>D1 is taking AP Govt this year. She says it’s going to be dead easy because of watching all 7 seasons of “The West Wing”. Her classmates, who tend more towards math and science, are going to have a rougher time with the subject. So in answer to</p>
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<p>I’d say that yes, some people do. </p>
<p>I concur with those who say that rigor in APs varies enormously depending on the teacher.
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<p>It’s an assessment determined by the College Board, so it’s entirely up to the College Board to determine how they want to parse it. By the same token, there are easy and hard courses at any university, but it is the university itself that determines what it offers. All courses offered at (fill in name of your favorite college) deserve the label of being courses offered at that college. </p>
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Of course not. One could also ask “are all 4.0 GPA students the same?” or “are all valedictorians the same?” or “are all students scoring 2300 on the SAT the same?”</p>
<p>Someone once did a man in the street type interview asking people what caused the seasons. Very few got it right. The kicker? The people being asked were all Harvard graduating seniors. :D</p>
<p>My kid found the AP Latin, US History and European History exams more challenging then AP Chem, AP Bio and AP Calculus BC. (And he is not a pure math/science kid, likes the humanities as well and studied for all). I think the History APs and language APs do not deserve “non core” label. It is possible that Government, Psych and Environmental Science, which are often mentioned as much easier, are indeed at a different level (my kid did not take these so this is all hearsay). Also kids taking AP in their native language is a little different.</p>
<p>Many college admissions officers don’t like “AP-lite.” One problem is some kids load up on these courses instead of taking core courses and/or other, more valuable courses. </p>
<p>For example, if you are good at foreign language and/or think you might want to pursue a Ph.D. in humanities or social sciences in the future, it would probably be wise to start the study of a second foreign language in high school. But so many high schools weigh APs, that taking a second, intro-level foreign lang class can affect your class standing. So, kids sign up for AP art history, AP psych or AP environmental science instead. I’m not knocking the latter; I’m just saying that class selection ends up being skewed due to concerns about class rank and/or the desire to get some “AP scholar” distinction.</p>
<p>I think many elite college admissions officers would applaud the kid who started a second language rather than an AP-lite course, especially if it cost him/her some places in class rankings.</p>
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