Are the values of EC's overrated at College Confidential?

Parents Forum
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I know that my boeferline for her school test score daughters ECs helped her with admissions though they were on thier face not all that special: they involved a long list of leadership positions in a large number of " regular old" school organizations. How do I know it made a difference. My daughter is now a tour guide and the head of admissions at a q and a info session used her ( anonymously) as an example when explaining they considered what they knew about a school or what they could learn from theGC letter. After discussing how they took into consideration rigor but also what they knew about school that didn’t have many Honors /AP options, she said " And when we see an applicant who is president of 6 clubs ( she named them) and editor of the Yearbook and editor in chief of the school paper we are going to look at whether this is a small private where that kind of list of ECs is the norm or a 650 person public where that large number of leadership positions is something very unusual. It’s going to make a big difference in admissions only in the later case" My daughter asked her later if that was indeed her and the admissions head said “Yes. I’ve been using that story since we accepted you very much based on what that told me about you. It’s a point I’ve wanted to make for a while.”

My niece with good but not top test scores ( but top grades) was I think probably helped by the unusual combo of her ECs: Head of Pom Pom squad President of Math Team with her success at top LAC S

In a scholarship interviews at USC resulting in a full tuition scholarship an unusual combo of ECs was talked about repeatedly by my friends daughters interviewers ( hockey team, pageant contest participant). She got the Scholarship over some more " impressive" kids

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@momofthreeboys OK. Speaking of “something like disc golf”, does it ever make sense to even put that on an app if you don’t compete? Our S19 runs XC and track and is an artist (will have a portfolio to show from AP Portfolio). He has leadership positions in some clubs at school. But…in the summer when he’s not running, he LOVES his disc golf. And when he goes to XC summer camp (at Wisconsin or Illinois), they always have an ultimate frisbee contest and he’s won Most Valuable for the camp both times. If he doesn’t compete in disc golf or ultimate but loves it and spends time doing it, is it worth putting on an app?

I’ve talked to him about trying to join a disc golf league but it’s not really feasible in the Midwest and it’s really just 30-40 year olds competing. He’s tried to start an ultimate frisbee team at his high school but, because XC and track is year round now and the ultimate players would all come from the XC team, they can’t make it work. XC/Track meets six days a week!

So… I just wonder if kids write about ECs that aren’t part of organized competition. Hard to know where (and if) disc golf or ultimate “fit” in his apps.

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Don’t do EC’s or “pursue a passion” for the colleges’ admissions anyway :slight_smile:

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@ArdenNJ

I think it’s pretty simple, actually. For the majority of schools.

GPA/SAT/ACT/School rigor (within a range) is 1st tier. It would take an exceptional eye-catching EC acheivement - athlete, inventor, 17 year-old City Council member kind of thing - to drag a lower-stat application into that pile.

But, of course, once a candidate is in that 1st tier and once the music stops there’s usually more seats than bottoms.

So, next? Teacher Recs + Essays probably, with an eye to extra curriculars - probably more because interesting extra curriculars are more often than not referenced in at least one of the essays.

(I will say that a HS college counsellor who I know who also had been an adcom at a competitive U did say “real” leadership positions were important - and teachers should be reminded to reference them in rec letters, fwiw.)

But even more importantly, what are ECs? In the case of “authentic” student applicants they are the things they kid does outside of “curriculum” that interests them. So, again, for “authentic” students, their ECs will reflect their interests and passions and extent of their curiosity and will have a tonal effect on the applicational. Genuine ECs will show in the applicaton, in rec letters, essays etc. and will make the applicant “real.”

So, the idea that you can “get into” a school you are not statistically academically suited for by virtue of ECs (unless they are really exceptional) is certainly unlikely. By the same token, in more competitive schools, there are plenty of kids who will get rejection notes despite having academic statistics that indicate they would be fine or even thrive at the school or program.

ECs are going to be one part of what sets those with academic statistics that get in from those with high enough academic statistics that don’t get in.

But the number of ECs or how fancy or altruistic they sound probably doesn’t matter much. How passionately and interestingly a student expresses those EC interests, and how legitimate and authentic they seems probably matters a whole lot more.

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I suspect my kid who made the origami earrings was more memorable than my computer science nerd. But my computer science son had the grades and scores and (presumably) recommendations that made him clearly a contender for the most selective univerisities. His ECs (all academic and mostly comp sci related) were impressive, but one sided. He got into some very selective unis and rejected from even more of them. He attended a top school for comp sci and was very happy there. In his dream job now.

Younger son’s grades were more on the cusp. He also got rejected from many top colleges, but on the whole did better than we expected. I have to think it was the soft parts of the application that made a difference. I think he presented himself really well, both on paper and in interviews and I know his teacher recommendations were excellent. And there was the origami and then some creative and funny stories who told related to his interest in history.

I think it is rare that an EC can make up for lackluster grades. I think much more often it is as others have said, everyone has the grades and scores, so the ECs become the tie-breakers.

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For schools that consider ECs in their admissions, I think one that’s memorable (Mathmom’s son’s origami
earrings) or one where the student gains national recognition (one of my kids was on the US national team in an olympic sport, which is fairly obscure), or one where the student has devoted serious amounts of time are the ECs that will make a difference when adcoms are looking for tie-breakers.

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I think some students can get this backwards. Schools aren’t looking for ECs. They are looking for students.Your EC is just a piece of information about you. First and foremost universities want to know that you can handle the work in the school and in your chosen major. Next they want to find out who the students are so they can make their decisions concerning who to admit. ECs, recommendations, essays etc all contribute to this body of information.

What you’re really asking when you ask is this EC good enough, or which is more important grades or ECs, is am I good enough? No one posting an answer can really know. We don’t see the application and even if we did we would have no other applications to compare it to. Students are not considered in a vacuum. They are considered among all of the other applicants that are out there.

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For one of my kids, I believe (but really its just a guess) that the EC in which he held a state office helped tip the balance at a couple of college where his grades were just a bit low. His test scores were also high, so pursuing and achieving in this EC may have made the school not consider him a bit of a slacker.

I think schools want to see that an applicant has at least some interests outside of going to school and coming home to study and makes an effort to be involved in some way with his school and/or community. But an EC is never going to make up for a poor academic record, but may tip the scale slightly if 2 candidates have similar academic profiles.

Get involved with ECs because you want to, not because it will help with college.

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EC are not just about displaying one’s talent and ability to distinguish oneself, though. Sometimes it’s about showing one’s eagerness to be a leader or even a member of something bigger than oneself.

One thing that ECs do for an applicant at a school with holistic-type admissions criteria is to suggest to the admissions committee that the student will become part of the university community. Schools do not want a student body made up completely of solitary scholars who spend most of their time focused on nothing but academics. They want students who will participate in those things that make the college experience unique and sought-after by prospective students in future years—students who will sing in acapella groups, play in the marching band, run student government, publish the student newspaper, organize student-run trips abroad, compete in sports (even Quidditch). Those are things that get “prospies” excited and that add to a school’s reputation. And universities need active and involved students to accomplish that. Are these things the most important criteria? No. But when faced with the task of deciding which one of many qualified candidates to offer a place in the incoming class, those things can make a difference.

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"They want students who will participate in those things that make the college experience unique and sought-after by prospective students in future years—students who will sing in acapella groups, play in the marching band, run student government, publish the student newspaper, organize student-run trips abroad, compete in sports "

Exactly. My daughter wrote an essay about being the " girl behind the table (s) " at activities fairs

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“One thing that ECs do for an applicant at a school with holistic-type admissions criteria is to suggest to the admissions committee that the student will become part of the university community.”

Yes, exactly, colleges with residences and communities (i.e. not commuter) need students to write for the paper, join an intramural or club team, tutor when they’re upperclassmen (or women). There was some numbers on this - that most colleges, like over 60% are commuter, don’t have dorms, maybe a token amount. So it’s possible that a school that’s not highly selective but has a sense of community or where clubs form a big part of the social scene, the AOs will look closer at ECs.

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The handful of ultra-selective colleges (ie. HYPS, et al) want exceptional students. Most of their applicant pool comprises students with outstanding academic credentials, and so they are looking for additional attributes that indicate potential for leadership, fame, and fortune. That means ECs that go beyond one’s immediate high-school sphere: athletic, academic, service, or other accomplishments at a higher level than school participation. I think a school like Wharton wants to see evidence that an applicant is potential CEO material. That can be a team captain, class president, or young entrepreneur. Harvard wants as interesting and dynamic a student body as it can assemble.
When you move further down the hierarchy, I don’t think ECs matter much, but the total absence might. A college will respect that an applicant’s family circumstances might have demanded him or her to babysit younger siblings or punch a cash register at a local supermarket instead of joining Model UN, but a middle-class (or better) suburban kid with no outside activities will raise two potential red flags: 1) The GPA and scores were achieved with extensive outside tutoring and coaching; 2) The kid is antisocial, and spends inordinate amounts of time on-line or playing video games. Those might be utterly unfair, ungrounded suspicions, but they can tilt the balance against an applicant.
At the overwhelming majority of the 3000-4000 four-year colleges, the applicant need only to show that he or she satisfactorily completed the requisite high-school curriculum and was able to understand instructions on standardized tests.

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So many people seem to want to chase the “right” ECs that they don’t realize the intrinsic value of them. While accomplishment is, indeed, impressive, ECs (and part-time jobs) bring other attributes. Kids who are involved in anything learn responsibility. They figure out how to budget their time. They learn how to try, to fail, and to get up and try again. They learn how to break apart something they don’t understand at first so that they can eventually get it. They learn how to interact with other people. They learn how to overcome disappointment. They learn how to win - and lose - gracefully. They learn how to work as a team and help those who are behind. They learn that life isn’t all about them. They learn that no matter how good you are, there will always be some better to come along and take the limelight from you. And, yes they learn leadership, but they also learn when to follow. I know these skills are sought after in workplaces, so no doubt they attract the attention of colleges as well.

@woogzmama wrote “When you move further down the hierarchy, I don’t think ECs matter much, but the total absence might.” This has happened at D’s school before when more than one talented student has been denied admission from top schools because they did absolutely nothing in four years - not even academic clubs that meet during lunch.

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Sorry I didn’t read everything before posting this but this has rung true with what I have said about college admissions and even relates to something I just heard from the residency director at my school for the specialty I’m applying for. You can imagine that choosing residents might be a little more “objective” than choosing college students because this is a process for selecting employees, not students. Anyway, we still have to write a personal statement. The residency director at my school said that 70-75% of the essays he reads are “completely neutral, cookie cutter, check off all the boxes.” Remember, these aren’t high school kids, these are people who are at the tail end of medical school, they’ve generally been through 2 admissions cycles already. 5-10% fall into the category of “so bad I’d rather shoot myself than finish reading” and the rest (at most 25%) actually have a positive impact on the application. Positive does not mean “makes up for poor grades or test scores” positive just means “like the applicant more than I did before I read it.” Only 1/7-1/4 people applying for residency write an essay that engenders any positive feelings. If that’s the proportion of medical students capable of that feat, imagine how low it is for high schoolers.

Even state level doesn’t always mean the same thing. Some states are more competitive than other states. Some state competitions have restrictions on who can enter such that the best students for a given activity in a given state aren’t even in that competition.

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But team captain and class president are not higher level than school participation (and are pretty dull).

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Met the Harvard Admissions Director a few years ago at a reception for SCEA accepted students and parents held at the Harvard Club in NYC. She recognized the name on my tag and started talking about my son. She didn’t mention his GPA or his SAT scores. She mentioned his EC’s. To me, that indicates that the EC’s are what she found noteworthy, not the grades/scores. Plenty of kids have perfect or near perfect academic records and standardized test scores, to the point where they become interchangeable. From my experience, it appears, at least at the most selective schools, that noteworthy EC’s are the differentiating factor in admissions.

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@tdy123 - someone mentioned this before, but admissions officers are not going to go around saying, “hey you’re the 2400, 800 in very test you took, 228 PSAT person. You got in because of your scores.” That would reduce the applicant to a number, which even if colleges do, wouldn’t want to admit it. But that being said, we know that Harvard doesn’t look at applicants as numbers, and it is impressive that she would remember a few years later, in addition to of course your son getting in! I do think that EC’s are differentiating as long as the academics cancel out if you will.

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@theloniusmonk I agree. First, applicants have to have the numbers. You see so many threads on this site where students insist that holistic admissions means that they still have a good chance of being admitted despite poor grades or SAT’s because they have wonderful EC’s. The EC’s help push an applicant over the top - first they have to get to the top with their grades and their scores.

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I think many still miss the point. When you say beekeeper, are you assuming it’s the unusualness that perks up the reader? Cuz, ime, it’s how the kid presents it, not whether he did it best or won national/international acclaim…or no one else did it. There needs to be a show of the attributes: the humanity, humility, energy, awareness of what’s expected, the drive to fulfill that, perspective and maturity, and more. Anyone can present some unusual activity and fall flat. And many kids do just that.

There’s a reason kids with big standing get rejected. The Olympic athlete who did absolutely nothing but his sport, the kid who collected math awards but doesn’t engage beyond that, etc.

And the idea you need “real” leadership misses that most times, some hs title isn’t it. Some evidence of true leadership qualities doesn’t even come with “titles.” It’s about the sorts of challenges the kid has taken on, has been taking on, and what that shows about him or her, what opps and needs they see and commit to. Not the easy stuff, either.

CC tends to look for absolutes and some hierarchy (this is better than* that*.) But the top tier colleges are looking for evidence of how the kid thinks and has been following through.

ECs aren’t some tie-beaker, some last coin toss. They’re a window into who the kid is. And remember, the presentation matters.

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ECs are useful though perhaps not in a direct way. That is, they provide a framework and substance around which to build an application and profile. Many play football, but not everyone will have the same experience and even those who do won’t make the same use of it or have the same perspective. Think of it this way. There are perhaps only 7 (?) plots in literature but there are millions of characters. ECs help you explain your character. And I think that always counts.