Here is a thought, how about doing something about the insane rise in the number of applicants? A cap needs to be placed on international students immediately. The increase in applicants is accelerating. Cornell’s acceptance rate this year is the same as Stanford’s was in 2007. It is now as hard to get into Cornell as it was to get into Stanford in 2007. Think about that. The acceptance rate dropped from 14.9% in 2015 to 10.3% in 2018. It took from 1999 to 2007 for Stanford’s acceptance rate to drop between the same two points. That is 8 years compared to 3 years. This is what I mean about accelerating. The logic for allowing unlimited access to American universities for international students is based on an assumption that there is a shortage of highly educated workers for our new service economy. We apparently need more engineers, computer programmers and doctors. While that may be true TODAY, what people aren’t looking at are the extrapolations for other groups. In addition to the number of international students growing rapidly, the children of the last generation of international students are also hitting our universities at the same time and they are all preparing for the same small number of careers. You have to be myopic to not see the problem on the horizon. What may be a shortage today will rapidly become an over supply when these kids hit the workforce. The reason is simple. They all want to do the same jobs. They all want to be doctors, lawyers, engineers and scientists. We will soon go from a shortage of these people to a massive over supply. Student visas need to be capped now and capped low. What we are seeing is that there are plenty of American students hitting the universities now to address the current shortage as well as the projected growth in demand.
Oh please, blaming the problems on international students is weak.
Do you really think it is hard to get into Cornell because of international students? They are only 10% of the undergrad population (based on 2016-2017 data).
And, btw, the reason international students are attractive to US colleges - because for the most part they are FULL PAY they are paying so that American students can get more aid. Someone has to bring in the money - correct?
I am returning to this thread to quibble with statistics cited in the OP article. From the article:
As was pointed out at http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/21435057/#Comment_21435057 by @kkriley1027 BC Admissions twitter reported
While the waitlist was probably long and the odds of getting off it short, I would tend to believe BC Admissions over Quinn’s purported insider info as an admissions consultant on the number coming off the waitlist, and the difference there, for me, casts doubt on the rest of her numbers, including the size of the waitlist. In other words, a mere admissions consultant is the only source and it appears that the author was unable to get confirmation from the director of BC admissions, who is quoted further on in the article.
More Internationals applicants drive the overall acceptance rate down. But I bet if schools released the admit rate for Internationals vs Domestic applicants, the Int’l rate would be lower than the overall rate and Domestic would be higher. The top schools want International kids, but they target a certain % of the class for those students. For instance, I was at a top lac info session recently. They had 2600 International applicants, yet the class is only 8-9% Internationals, so less than 45 kids. Even if they take 100 to enroll 40, that is a 4% admit rate, much lower than their overall acceptance rate.
Long waitlists only benefit the colleges, hoping legacies will be placated and that the “everyone gets a trophy” generation still feels “ok” with themselves.
Seriously, my son got waitlisted from two good schools but they both have over 2000 kids on the waitlist for possibly only 1-200 spots?? Don’t waste my time or my child’s on the slight hope it might happen. It does not do anything but providing slim and pretty much false hope. He realizes this and would rather the colleges “man up” and just either admit or deny him.
I can say I wasn’t rejected anywhere lol… Waiting lists are better than rejection imo
@irishfan21 - though if you are not accepted from the waitlist you are essentially denied, yes lol ??
I know I should know this, but when a student is waitlisted and then accepted, how is that incorporated into the college’s admission statistics? Are they included in the pool that is accepted and therefore it would have a positive impact on their acceptance rate? Or do they not count it and then they get to look more selective than they really are?
My son was waitlisted for two top 30 schools. After reviewing my son’s credentials, one of the admissions counselors told him (and us) that he had a “better than 50% chance” given his unique combination of excelling in academics, music, and sports. I guess he neglected to add “…of being put on the waitlist.” We were a little disappointed as it was originally my son’s first choice but by the time the waitlist notification came he had pretty much decided to go elsewhere for other reasons so it was not a huge loss. He’s convinced he’ll be happy and successful at the school he did select.
I don’t have the hard statistics to support this but I have heard anecdotes that top schools are selecting larger percentages of ED applicants than ever before. In fact, we were told by one admissions officer - quite publicly - at another school that my son should apply ED if he really wanted to be admitted. Early decision wasn’t an option in my day and I think it is hurting students while fattening the coffers/prestige of the colleges. Maybe it wasn’t so public or obvious in my day (before Al Gore invented the internet) but it seems like colleges have heavily invested in statisticians to manipulate admissions numbers and data: it seems like there is a distribution curve for every possible student characteristic. It’s no longer enough to be in the top 10% of your class engaged in several extracurriculars. Going through this as a parent has opened my eyes and we will be better prepared for child #2 in three years. A colleague warned me that this has become big business and to treat the process accordingly. I did not understand until now.
@choguy1 I can only speak from personal experience. My D applied ED to a very selective school and was denied. I think it was the best thing that could have happened to her. She ended up with many choices and some surprises. She was also offered money from several schools, which would never have happened at her ED school. She did ED to a school she really liked but certainly not her dream school. We did it for strategic reasons as she was the only ED from her high school. If we had to do it over again, she would have done SCEA to an Ivy. She ended up accepted to an Ivy RD and waitlisted at another. I think this ED stuff is a bit of a scam. These schools are preying on applicants’ fears that they have no shot with RD. They lock these kids up and they get full pay from most of them, as kids who need aid will not ED. This system is broken and needs reform.
@quadaces Great analysis and well said. My S is headed to the Honors College at the flagship in our state. He couldn’t be happier. He has nearly a full-ride and will have opportunities for research and be able to attend some medical classes as an upperclassman at the University’s Medical School. He won a competitive scholarship and will be the big fish (with lots of expectations and responsibilities). I wish there was a way as consumers we could affect change at these schools. Unfortunately, it’s a seller’s market these days.
UNC offered the transfer waitlist to over 500 kids including my daughter. The chances of her getting off are slim to none. We took the wait list but we are not expecting anything. If we get notified of something different than well become excited.
@Nurse001, not sure if you are OOS in NC, and maybe you know this already but the transfer admit rate for OOS students to UNC is much higher than being admitted as a freshman. In fact, many people in the college advising world think this is the only way to get in to UNC from OOS as a freshman. So if you are OOS, your daughter should at least have a better chance as a transfer than as a freshman admit. I know a girl that is a junior there now who got in as a transfer. Had no shot as a freshman.
@collegemomjam Thanks for the info. We are in state, but I don’t believe she would have gotten in as a freshman as her SAT is kinda on the lower side. I believe last year they took 50 students off the wait list and there is no number system. They relook at the waitlist students applications again. I told her not to get her hopes up and by chance she gets in then she would be pleasantly happy.
Are artistic wait list for schools out of control as well? Anyone know those approximate numbers and percentages?
My D was just wait listed for musical theater program.
I was told some schools already over accept and rarely even look at the wait list…that it’s just a safety net for schools.
I think the whole “just admit me or reject me” attitude is interesting. I understand the frustration, but if you don’t want to be on the wait list then don’t take the spot. When one is taken off the wait list, his/her attitude might just change. I do think some schools wait list too many people, but people are often extremely negative toward them instead of just remaining neutral. I would said negativity forces one to dwell more on the decision than neutrality. I think when wait listed, people should pat themselves on the back, send in an LOCI if one wishes, and kind of just forget about it. If accepted then cool.
Also, @ the “everyone gets a trophy generation” comment. First of all, as someone who is part of this generation, I’ve never grown up feeling entitled to anything and neither have the people around me. I still don’t get where that comes from. 1. We’re not the ones giving ourselves “trophies” 2. Yep, still can’t give one example of when someone felt entitled to an award or position or something for participating. 3. I’m sorry, but who in the world wants to be patted on the back for not succeeding?
Anyway, I agree with the legacy comment to an extent, but I haven’t actually done research on it, so correct me if I’m wrong. I’m sure the wait list is used for people in legacy circumstances not to make the applicant feel better, but to appease the parents instead. When this does occur, I’m sure it’s only for a few applicants. I know plenty of people who have been admitted in which their legacy factor clearly played a large roll, but I also know people who were out right rejected that were extremely qualified and had parents attend the school.
While the legacy argument regarding wait lists does hold some weight, I’m not sure that it’s really all that much.
@Ashtash you are a very wise person and bring up some great points.
To take your comments about the negative thoughts about waitlists a step further, being waitlisted still might be at the end of the day, another chance of admission. I don’t have hard data, but I feel like last year in particular I heard of a lot of people that got in to schools off of the wait lists. So you never know.
As it relates to “everyone gets a trophy”…I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m the parent of children in your generation. I remember when my kids were 4 years old at the end of soccer season everyone getting a trophy. And I remember a few other instances as well, all when my kids were in preschool. That was pretty much when it ended.
Your generation is anything but “everyone gets a trophy”. I feel like ESPECIALLY as it relates to college admissions, it has never been harder (for the top schools). There is a lot of pressure on you guys to make your nearly perfect applications seem even better. Admissions counselors (and therefore parents) not only encourage the kids to have strong grades in the most rigorous classes, take SAT’s, ACT’s, Subject Tests and AP exams, but we also expect you guys to juggle your academics with being a high performing athlete or musician. And oh, by the way, you better figure out a way to give back to your community, while your at it.
What I find encouraging, and I don’t have any specific articles to back it up but I have read this, is that I do think your generation is more concerned about quality of life. You guys might be more likely to take a lower paying job so you can live in the city you prefer or spend more time with your family or on your hobbies. And you are probably more likely to give back to your communities as well. Greener and more socially aware.
So while there definitely are some students that don’t get into top colleges that might come across as entitled and seem to be whining, I don’t think that is a fair representation of your generation. I don’t remember having to jump through the hoops you guys do back in the 80s when I was in your shoes.
Thanks for your posts. You sound like a very clear thinking young man/woman and I’m sure you will do well!!!
@Ashtash @collegemomjam I think you both make excellent points. I think this is largely an adult problem, not a kid problem. We need to stop asking, “Where can he/she get in?” and start asking, “Where will he/she be happy?” To me, the problem with wait lists is that it allows the uncertainty to continue. This is already a ardourous process. Kids on multiple wait lists are still grinding away “demonstrating interest” and maintaining their GPA so their final grades will be acceptable to College XYZ. Enough! These high achievers deserve to post their school and have all their classmates congratulate them. I have never seen another kid say, “He/she could have done better.” But I have definitely heard the adults say it…
I talked to a friend of mine yesterday that is a college counselor at an elite private high school and used to be an admission person that reviewed applications at northwestern a few years back. She is beside herself counseling high school students now. The slam dunk schools are really no longer there. She tells kids now if you get accepted to a college your doing well. She said yes applying to more schools now is out of control. She said if the average is 12-15 schools that competent kids are rejected to over half, wait listed to almost half with like maybe 1-2 acceptances and not to their number 1 schools. She said that the wait list used to mean the schools really wanted you but just don’t have enough spots. That has seemed to change also.