There are indeed kids who are “too dumb” for college. But not taking calc in HS is not a good indicator of that.
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This is a bit of a tangent, but I actually wonder if some of this is also that the level of preparation for the very top kids has risen stratospherically in the last two decades. I went to a STEM university having only gone through AB Calculus. Though it was a very selective college, I did not feel underprepared in comparison to other freshmen. I felt solidly in the middle of my peers --less prepared than some but more prepared than others --now it is possible that I just happened to be friends with a particularly unprepared lot. I really don’t know. But there were lots of students who took Cal I during first semester freshman year either because they wanted to repeat the material (to solidify skills) or presumably they had not taken Cal at all in high school.
What I do know however, is at least according to CC posters, current applicants to that same university need to have gone much further in math than I ever dreamed of going in high school if they hope to be admitted. And somehow only getting through Cal AB labels one as underprepared for elite STEM programs while (according to this thread) not getting through a strong Precal course labels one as underprepared for humanities/social science majors at selective universities.
I am positive that I wouldn’t be admitted to my alma mater now, but I also suspect that the bar has moved up if completing Precal is a prerequisite for all selective non-STEM colleges. And quite honestly I am amazed at students who discuss doing independent research (whether in the humanities or STEM) or winning endless national contests or writing for academic journals while in high school. I had never heard of high school students doing that sort of work when I was that age.
I know this thread is talking mostly about students who are not necessarily aiming at competitive colleges, but I just wonder if our perception of adequate preparation has been warped by the ever-rising level of academic performance by tippy-top kids (and the intensity of their driven parents’ expectations).
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I agree that the top high school students are exceptionally well-prepared. The delta between that group and the remainder seems wider than ever, compounded by covid.
Actually, when I was in high school, “four years of high school math” (that many more selective colleges wanted to see) was generally understood to mean through precalculus, since there was no “off ramp” to AP statistics.
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Interesting take, and I think that you are onto something there. As competition for the most “prestigious” and popular colleges becomes increasingly more fierce, the applicants try and stand out. Whether it is true or not, many applicants or potential applicants do so by taking increasingly high level courses, especially in math.
Whether this is needed is questionable, but since very few high school students actually know what AOs will consider high “rigor”, the students go for the easily quantifiable. They take every AP course they can, self-teach for AP tests, AND, take advanced math courses at CCs or elsewhere.
I do not know whether it is required, or whether, indeed, these students really are better prepared for college. I have heard pretty harsh criticisms on part of faculty on how well AP classes actually prepare kids for college-level courses.
Not really as much as one would think. A lot of students are spending time and effort on things that they think will increase their competitiveness for “top” colleges, and many of these things are not really preparing them for college. I mentioned AP Calc. Despite the claims, AP Calc does not provide the background that a student needs for taking advanced college math courses that require Calc background (this is according to actually faculty). However, the most ambitious students are taking AP Calc BC, because that is what AOs tend to look at.
The problem is that APs are considered the Gold Standard for college preparedness, and AP courses are training kids to do well on the AP tests. Many many topics cannot be tested this way. The AP test cannot measure how well a student understands lab work, how well as students writes, and other stuff.
All that being said, despite the slight drop, more students are considering college as a viable career choice now than, say, 20 years ago. That means that more student sare taking the wide range of high school courses which are really only required for college admissions, versus focusing solely on the minimum high school credits needed to graduate high school.
To summarize, I think that more students have the basic preparedness for college when they graduate high school, but the most ambitious students, those who want to be accepted to the colleges with the lowest admissions rates, are focusing far more on preparing for colleges admissions, rather than preparing for college.
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AP calculus BC is really the lowest minimum level to be a stem major at some schools. Many, maybe most, stem majors at HYPSM have completed multivariate, and often linear algebra as well during high school, per my sources there. Of course, there are plenty of non-stem majors who don’t.
Regardless, the kids who take AP calculus of any type are not the ones likely to drop out. It is the other half of the class we should worry about
Yikes. Correlation does not imply causation. Do not start a rumor on CC that multivariate is the “new normal”. I can only speak to MIT and that is definitely NOT the case. There are plenty of first year students still enrolling in first year calculus…
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It’s always fun to watch a question about the 3.2 million kids who graduate high school each year become targeted conversations about the programs offered at individual schools including UCLA and MIT.
If the kids and schools discussed on these boards fit the category of unprepared, then the overwhelming answer to the topic is yes. If the kids discussed here aren’t ready, then there is no material cohort elsewhere that changes that assessment.
Beyond fixing k-12 education, eliminating social media, stamping out depression, and a whole bunch of other solutions beyond this topic…if most kids aren’t “ready” for college, then what do we do with them? Send them all home and hope they figure things out? What are we going to do with the 2,000 colleges we no longer need, because the kids aren’t ready?
If kids aren’t as prepared as before, they need additional schooling even more. As a society, we need to figure out if smarter citizens are a priority. I think it’s probably worth the investment.
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Not in my neck of the woods! My D knew zero people from our area that took MVC in HS. AP calc AB was the highest level at her school and surrounding area. At least 20% of her class went on to study engineering in college and everyone has graduated or is on track to this year (lots of co-ops in her cohort).
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I agree it is worth the investment, but most 4 year schools are a terrible place to do remedial education, and as a society we are wasting resources. We could also have those 2000 colleges teach addition or life skills or many other subjects, but that’s not very cost effective.
@momofboiler1, please note I limited my comment regarding multivariate to HYPSM. I am sure that is a small subset of kids. Yes, @blossom, plenty of first years at MIT will still enroll in calculus 1. What they will find, per the first years I know there, is many classmates who are better prepared and they will need to catch up, particularly if they want certain stem majors like physics. For pre-meds, biology, cs and non-stem majors, calculus 1 makes perfect sense. And can be a great course to repeat for a high grade in college
I work at a private preparatory high school and we have had kids come home or drop out of college for a while over the years. It’s not a ton of kids, but enough that you do notice. We have had one case at our school where the kid got in trouble with the law. He wasn’t struggling academically, but he did come back home to go to a local school and do his court appointed community service. His single mom who had worked very hard to send him to both a private high school and college, was not happy. There have also been kids who dropped out for a while or moved back home due to mental and substance abuse issues. We seem to have more kids transfer schools than anything else. I wouldn’t say we’ve had kids drop out due to not being prepared academically, it’s more that they’re not emotionally ready or mature enough to be away from home.
Another thing I’ve seen is lack of motivation or burnout after college. I’ve seen kids who did very well in high school, went to a very prestigious and selective university and then they graduate and just job hop or do nothing. I think some of that has to do with pressure from parents to go to college or go to a top college. So they’ll go to college, do well, but not fantastic, graduate and then chill and do nothing.
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What colleges explicitly require frosh applicants to have completed calculus BC (or equivalent like calculus 2 at a college) for frosh admission?
The number of colleges that specify calculus for frosh admission (generally or for specific majors) is small. Are there any of those few that require calculus BC or equivalent (versus calculus AB or equivalent)?
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I agree…but you have a few million underqualified people that need a “next step”. No going back or changing things… they’re on your doorstep. FWIW…they are the tip of the iceburg.
I know this is your favorite topic, @ucbalumnus, and I don’t want to derail the thread, so I will message you privately.
Back to our main topic…
Yep, this is my general observation as well. Again, getting a bachelors degree in a great many areas of focus isn’t that hard, and even if one is greatly disillusioned with public secondary education in this country, it seems that not being able to handle oneself academically from a skill standpoint is probably not the sole, or even necessarily the main, culprit. I could be wrong.
Being on one’s own for the first time is a great trap for a great many kids. Going from a lot of structure to no structure is a big leap for a lot of kids given the numerous social distractions at practically every college in the country. Nobody cares what’s going on at HYPSM for purposes of this conversation. They represent a small sliver of … pretty much everything.
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Having nothing else to do is a really bad reason to attend expensive college. At least acquire the basic skills cheaply elsewhere, like community college.
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Many of us feel this way. 
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Somebody mentioned burnout. I think it’s a fair point worth considering. It’s in the same realm as other mental health problems that young adults everywhere have been dealing with in droves since the start of COVID 2 years ago.
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Calc is just another admissions factor which shows high levels of disparity across race and family income.
Around 20% of students take calc in HS (most HSs offer calc, fewer though in low income communities), but around 90% of admitted students at many highly rejectives have taken calculus.
86% of Wesleyan’s admitted students in a recent class had taken calc, and that’s at a school with a relatively high proportion of students who aren’t going to pursue STEM.
96% of Georgia Tech admits took AP Calculus (although 6 years old). There are many more sources out there where highly rejective colleges have divulged the proportion of admitted students who had taken calc.
Fair to say there’s some type of unwritten requirement for Calc at more rejective colleges happening here. From this, it’s not a stretch to say that nearly all admits at the more rejective colleges had taken pre-calc in HS.
Just for fun: Harvard Crimson survey (self-reported and not 100% of class) of math level of enrolled students thru Class of 2023 (with 5 years of history):
And Class of 2025:
ETA: somehow this posted a long time after the conversation on calc had moved on. Apologies.
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Neither am I, but while I didn’t insert any schools into the discussion, in my opinion it is worth vetting the specific examples being offered in support of the various assertions and generalizations being made here. If nothing else, it might help us understand what various posters really mean when deem certain students unprepared.
For example, when you asserted that it would be waste of resources for Princeton student to try to catch up in a course like Pre-calc, I am curious what you mean by that regardless of whether it is Princeton or any other school.
Likewise, you assert that BC calc is “the lowest minimum level to be stem major” and that “many, maybe most, stem majors at HYPSM have completed multivariate . . …” Asking you to support these assertions isn’t an attempt to narrow the discussion to STEM or HYPSM, but rather to better understand what you and others mean by “unprepared” for college.
Of course I never claimed anything like this.