<p>I've heard from current student friends, a few posters, and some articles in the newspaper that there are gender issues/women sometimes feel degraded/objectified there. For current Dartmouth students, do you feel like there is a male-dominated social scene that fosters this atmosphere?</p>
<p>I would disagree to a large extent. The frats do tend to be male-dominated obviously but there are many other options, including, co-ed houses, sororities and many other social events. That said, the frats still remain a default social space on campus. While I can’t speak for girls, I would say that most fraternities (and there members) strive to really make the atmosphere as friendly as possible. Among my friends that are girls, they tend to have generally positive experiences and, of course, never feel uncomfortable leaving if they feel uncomfortable. </p>
<p>And outside of the fraternity system I don’t think there are any major issues when it comes to women being degraded. Because our fraternity system tends to be a big part of social life (but far from the only option), I think we tend to focus on the idea of “alternative social spaces” and gender-neutral options a lot which is a great exercise in self-reflection but it certainly should not scare you off. </p>
<p>If possible, the best way to see is to come here and check out campus. Even though admissions won’t add it the official tour, you can certainly come check out the night scene and see how you feel. I also want to emphasize that the fraternity scene is far from the only social option and that I have never heard gender-issues being a problem outside greek life.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is the smallest and most undergraduate-focused of the Ivies, and is therefore the Ivy that is most often compared to small New England liberal arts colleges (e.g. Middlebury, Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, etc). However, the LACs generally established tough bans or restrictions on single-sex social organizations when they went coed. Dartmouth went the other direction, and made efforts to preserve the old all-male social clubs and traditions for those who wanted to retain them.</p>
<p>So social life at Dartmouth is now much more gender-segregated than it is the LACs. The social opportunities at Dartmouth are defined, to some extent, by gender. And realistically, the social opportunities available to men may be better than those available to women, simply because Dartmouth has a much older heritage as a school for men. </p>
<p>This situation is not unique to Dartmouth; the same is true for other Ivies as well. But Dartmouth draws particular attention, because it has such a visible Greek scene, and because it is the Ivy most likely to be compared to the gender-integrated LACs.</p>
<p>Women are “sometimes degraded” everywhere.</p>
<p>Dartmouth Beautification Project, nuff said.</p>
<p>I absolutely feel as if women are degraded. I don’t feel like it’s always overt, and that male students are constantly bashing women and making them feel uncomfortable in frat basements, but it does exist. Honestly, the AD squash incident is a great example. Male students (even if they were ADs) felt comfortable enough to enter a large, public space and call women “whores and sluts.” Sure they apologized, but obviously there is some kind of underlying issue.</p>
<p>I feel that many of the frat brothers here feel like girls are here so serve them and stroke their egos. The prettier you are, the more worth you have, and the guys here aren’t afraid to let you know it. The “this is college, this is how we’re suppose to act” mentality is frightening. Yes we have sororities and coed, but those are on the periphery.
We have a slew of women’s issues that the Greek system and the administration does not take seriously. And why should they? Nobody wants to speak up because would being admitting that Dartmouth isn’t the most wonderful place on earth. Of course, that would blasphemy.</p>
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<p>Welcome to life.</p>
<p>There are a certain number of guys like that everywhere. I’m sure you encountered them in high school, in college, and just walking around in everyday life. You will eventually encounter them at work–even in the most brains-driven companies. </p>
<p>Yes, of course people are always going to note the degree of attractiveness <em>to them</em> of other people. It’s natural. To elevate it to the sole indicator of a person’s worth is another matter. </p>
<p>There are guys who basically don’t consider women fully human unless they are women that they would like to have sex with. There are women who basically don’t consider men fully human unless they are men that <em>they</em> would like to have sex with. (But often in the case of such women, ordinary-looking men can be amazingly attractive if they are well-heeled or powerful in context. There are girls who, if they are at the beach, have to make the lifeguard; if they are in college, they have to make a professor or the BMOC; if they are at work, they have to make the boss. Etc. )</p>
<p>Modern feminism has gone a long way to make people think about whether this is the best lens through which to view other human beings in the long run. In a dating/social situation, it’s always going to be exaggerated, especially amongst large groups of young single people who are looking for potential mates.</p>
<p>In terms of women being there to “serve them and stroke their egos,” it’s only going to happen if the women are willing to buy into it. If they have enough sense of self-worth to blow such guys off, they won’t be victimized by them. If they are stupid enough to buy into it and consider themselves “superior” to other women because they have found favor in the eyes of such guys, well, what can you say?</p>
<p>The solution is in the hands of women.</p>
<p>On CC, they could start by letting all the guys who post those “are the girls attractive at X” threads that they are exhibiting a peurile and unattractive mindset.</p>
<p>I realize this behavior is a part of life, and Dartmouth is not the first time I’ve encountered it. At Dartmouth, I find that boys are actively encouraged to evaluate girl’s worth based on their looks, and boys that do otherwise are condemned. While this may happen in the workplace, it would probably amount to working in a hostile environment, so most people won’t be so open about it. A couple of my male friends have been chastised by their frat brothers for talking to female friends that are deemed unattractive in the basement. Not girls they wanted to hook up with, but just friends. </p>
<p>I guess that has a lot to do with the social scene. Being associated with girls that have been deemed “unworthy” lowers your own social status. I understand that this will occur everywhere I go in life, but I don’t think it always be this blatantly obvious and offensive.</p>
<p>In addition, when I said that boys feel like they need to have their egos stroked, that it doesn’t seem to be a small minority of the campus population. It’s a part of the campus culture. Sure, this happens everywhere, but here it seem like every single male student needs some kind of validation. Girls did not attend this school simply make guys feel special. At the same time, these are the same guys that believe that the girls here are gross, and anywhere else they would “do better”. The problem is if a girl doesn’t buy into it, she becomes unfairly labeled and her social capital greatly decreases. Not buying into the male-dominated culture means rejecting the entire social system, and majority of girls are not willing to do that (understandingly enough). </p>
<p>What these guys don’t realize is that they may not “do better”. Once they leave Dartmouth they will be in for a rude awakening when they discover they can’t treat women like they’ve treated the female students here at Dartmouth. Of course, that won’t be true for every male student, and not all male students treat girls here disrespectfully.</p>
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<p>As what?</p>
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<p>Let me ask you, how common at D is the type of girl who thinks that she should get equal pay, have equal opportunity in education, sports, and jobs, but says she’s “not a feminist” if the subject comes up? </p>
<p>You know, because it’s just so <em>unattractive</em>?</p>
<p>Um, I don’t think blaming the victim is the way to go here. Encountering guys who objectify women isn’t likely to ever be done on the numbers basis that it is at Dartmouth. You might meet a sexist guy sometime outside of school. He will not be with all his brothers, with the power to control social access like he does at Dartmouth. And when you get out of school, or even spend an off term you will find a much more traditional and respectful atmosphere in terms of relationships between guys and girls. (there is hope) At Dartmouth guys control the social spaces where the parties are, it gives them power over girls. It’s as simple as that. Combine that atmosphere with alcohol, machismo, and the first time certain formerly nerdy guys feel empowered (not to mention jocks and the formerly not nerdy) and the ramifications are felt everywhere. Everyone is dehumanized. It’s too bad. It isn’t pervasive for 4 years, but it taints things. It isn’t all guys, but it’s a part of what happens at the school. I think guys are surprised when they leave for the real world.</p>
<p>In the 80s, during two separate summers, I attended Dartmouth (for a language institute and for regular summer session classes), which is well-attended by regular Dartmouth students because of the way Dartmouth constructs their required semester attendance (or used to, anyway).</p>
<p>Very definitely, I felt that there was an overt machismo at Dartmouth, and I heard many comments made about women, their bodies, etc. (As well, it was the first time I had ever heard an anti-Semitic comment, as well–clearly, I had been sheltered–not aimed at anyone, just an ignorant stereotype that was said, unabashedly).</p>
<p>I was struck by three things at Dartmouth 1) excellent academics, easy professorial access–the profs like and want to teach), 2) stunning drinking (I know, I know, college is rampant with drinking), but I had never seen the quantity and diversity of drink a-flowin’, in my life, since Dartmouth (not even in the sailing community, of which we are a part, and which drinks, A LOT!!); it was “Animal House,” writ large, and 3) how comfortable, “educated” boys were about making overt and unabashed comments to and about women. </p>
<p>I was glad, when it came time for my own daughter to apply to college, that she was unwilling to entertain any schools without access to urban centers because, frankly, I think that Dartmouth manages to be a very fine undergrad school, but I would have worried about her in an environment where there seemed (at least, in the 80s) a lack of inhibition about objectifying women and doing it, overtly, no less.</p>
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<p>I’m not blaming the victim. The guys who act that way are jerks. Nevertheless, there are girls who play into their hands. I am saying that the woman have the power to refuse, if they choose to take it. And moreover that NOTHING but their choosing to exercise that power will change the situation. </p>
<p>If significant numbers of women STOPPED GOING to frat basements where things get particularly gross, things would change in those basements. If women GOT UP AND LEFT when guys were obnoxious, or CALLED GUYS ON IT when they made overtly offensive remarks things would change.</p>
<p>But are they willing to do that? Or are they more worried about whether “the boys will like them”? And if they are not willing, who is going to wave the magic wand and turn all those guys into more evolved beings? No one. It can’t be done. If you look at the US in the second part of the 20th century you will see that blacks and women, for example, only began to be treated with respect when they DEMANDED respect. Dartmouth is now half female. They are there in sufficient numbers to make their power felt.</p>
<p>And if you think that you will only occasionally meet a sexist guy outside of school, and if you think that he will NOT be surrounded by his “brothers” in a power structure, well then all I can say is you haven’t had much exposure to many of the companies like the ones <em>I’ve</em> worked for. Yes, corporate culture does vary, and some are more extreme than others. But oh yeah, it’s out there all right. I worked for one top 20 software company where it was the done thing for the top managers to attend bachelor parties featuring teenage hookers, whom they all shared. And then came into work the next day and the stories spread around the company. At the user group conventions married male execs openly ■■■■■■■for hookups. The <em>president</em> of the company had earlier dumped his wife at one of these events, and took up with a female programmer who worked for the company. I could go on and on. I know of two women who committed suicide while working in this environment.</p>
<p>Wow…this thread is REALLY turning me off to Dartmouth. I’m a woman and a proud feminist. I don’t think I would be comfortable at a college where women are frequently objectified and not seem as equals with their male peers. If this is the type of environment that the greek scene at Dartmouth creates, I feel the great academics or Ivy League label wouldn’t be worth it. I hope Dartmouth is trying to address this issue and clean up their act. In our day and age, sexism is no longer a joke, something to be taken lightly, or “classic college behavior.” What is being described on this board is sexual harassment. I’m definitely going to keep reading the responses here, and I hope Dartmouth won’t fall off my list entirely as I keep reading. Right now…it’s questionable.</p>
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Greek systems, at any school, tend to promote attitudes and behaviors that feminists dislike. Greek organizations are typically segregated (coed frats do exist, but that’s not the norm) and strict segregation is generally not the best way to promote mutual acceptance and understanding. </p>
<p>This is not a Dartmouth-specific issue. You would likely find similar concerns at practically any other school with a Greek system. Of course, some schools happen to have more prominent Greek systems than others. </p>
<p>This should not be news to anyone; it’s been commonly understood since the 1960s and 1970s, if not earlier. At that time, historically all-male colleges throughout the country began admitting women, and had to consider the issue of accomodating them within an all-male social system. Some schools addressed this issue by completely abolishing frats (and the rich tradition of camaraderie that went with them), and replacing them with a new environment that was both coed and socially integrated. Other schools kept the frats, added sororities, and became coed but socially segregated. In New England, Williams and Dartmouth are perhaps the two most often cited examples of these different approaches (possibly because Williams and Dartmouth seem similar in many other respects). </p>
<p>The different approaches appeal to different kinds of people. For some people, membership in a frat or sorority is the highlight of their college experience. Other people aren’t interested. There are enough options for everyone to find a reasonable fit.</p>
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<p>Thanks for that stellar contribution to the conversation. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I just have to say, this thread is really interesting. Dartmouth as of right now is my number 1 choice, but I’m not necessarily sure if I’ll enjoy certain aspects of its culture being covered in this thread.</p>
<p>But here’s the question. Isn’t this sort of gender-degrading behavior endemic to Greek life in general? I know that Corbett mentioned this partially in his/her post, but if that type of behavior is omnipresent throughout all Greek systems, then Dartmouth itself is not necessarily to blame.</p>
<p>Although, I guess you could argue that the institution can be blamed for keeping such a social system that promotes this type of behavior…</p>
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<p>I think Toomuchtv has summed up the social situation perfectly. </p>
<p>I agree that these issues occur at many schools with Greek systems. However, the social atmosphere at most schools is not dominated by the Greek organizations. If you want to participate in the social life here, it will most likely include being affiliated or spending your time socializing in fraternities. Sure, there is an “alternative scene”, but it’s barely on the radar. </p>
<p>One solution would be for all the girls to stop going to the fraternities, but then they would forgo their social lives (the only social life available), and most people are not willing to do that. Because there is no alternative social scene, your social capital here is everything, as sad a that is. Most girls 18-21 would rather be liked than considered a feminazi witch, and are willing to put up with the behavior of the male students, if only for four years. There is no way for a girl to win in this situation.</p>
<p>The college administration has tried to change the Greek system. But it’s difficult, especially when the alumni are vocal and have a huge role in the college. I mean, Zete and Beta are active again because of the vocal and powerful alumni. </p>
<p>Consolation, why didn’t anyone speak up in your workplace? Obviously, there were issues there too.</p>
<p>Are women “degraded at Dartmouth”? Hahaha… This is an Ivy League school in one of the most liberal sectors of the known universe. Do the math. A handful of skiers, lacrosse players, and basement-dwelling frat stars are not an entire institution.</p>
<p>By and large, the dudes here are exceedingly friendly with both each other and the ladies that attend. I love how open and approachable the student body is as a whole, and how collective the social environment is in spite of the wild diversity here. </p>
<p>Example:
My current social staple is made up of 2 black gents, 2 white gents, an Asian gent, 2 Hispanic girls, 3 Asian girls, and several European girls. And there is a lot of raging- a lot. But honestly? Not a smidgen of racism or sexism happening. Some dude accidentally knocked down one of our tiny girls at a party, and the guys almost destroyed him. I know of isolated incidents involving guys being rude or getting too “handsey”, but 9 times out of 10 this is probably due to alcohol more so than to pervasive attitudes.</p>
<p>In all seriousness, this thread is ridiculous. Guess what women? Your genetic set will forever be evaluated by the world. This is not inherently evil, so don’t be sad. Biology runs the show, and men will forever be measured as providers and protectors, just as women will be for their ability to bear and care for healthy children. You cannot neuter the human brain of this, no matter how much intellectualization or genderization. </p>
<p>And yes, Beta and Zete are active again- but they are both full of some of the nicest, tamest guys on campus. “Everyone is dehumanized”… Please, do you live in a bubble? (Oh and how are observations from almost 30 years ago relevant whatsoever?)</p>
<p>Look, there are thousands of people at this school who will choose never to venture into a frat or a sorority. I’m not sure who started all of this sensationalism, but stop drinking the Kool-Aid, people.</p>
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<p>Well, back to the pink and lavender section in the toy store, then.</p>
<p>It’s obvious that Bait&Switch has been “drinking Kool aid” because you’re a classic example of a student living within the Dartmouth Bubble. “I have a diverse group of friends that rage, and we aren’t sexist or racist, therefore everyone else is unreasonably bashing Dartmouth.” </p>
<p>I’m talking about a pervasive attitude among the majority of the male students to treat girls as if they are lesser than and objectify them. But apparently I should just accept all this because it’s “biology”. It’s wonderful that there isn’t racism or sexism in your social group, but an example of your friends doesn’t represent the social scene at Dartmouth. This is more than just “human nature”.</p>
<p>The frat scene isn’t a handful of students either. At least 60% of male students are Greek, and 40% of Dartmouth women too. </p>
<p>Yes, Beta and Zete are active again now, and yes I agree the guys now are tame. But they should never have be allowed to come back. Period. After that behavior, the fraternities should’ve de-recognized forever. What they did was wrong.</p>
<p>Thousands of students will never enter the frats? There are only 4000 people in the student body.</p>
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