Aren’t UC’s the best

College Search & Selection
21

<p>
[quote]
vicissitudes writes: I said that the class sizes between a large public university and a smaller private university is often more similar than you would think. So explain to me again why it's intentionally wrong to post stats that the colleges themselves published on the common data sets? Is there something inherently wrong with posting statistics on CC that came from published data by the universities themselves?

[/quote]
Is there something inherently wrong? In the general sense, posted by someone who has no reason to believe otherwise, no. But for you, a person who is a Cal student and should know something about the actual sizes of classes at Cal & Stanford I think it is deliberate deception because you're passing on information you know (or should know) to be misleading.</p>

<p>viccissitudes tells you that the typical class sizes at Cal and Stanford are quite close. This is not true!! And he also wants you believe this holds more generally, between large state U's and privates. He does this with a number he concocts from the Common Data Set. Well as Disraeli once said, "There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics." </p>

<p>Understanding why his claim is wrong is <em>important</em> because this forum is for the benefit of HS students trying to make a huge decision on their future. If you don't know any different from personal experience (since you're still in HS), you can end up assuming it isn't that different in terms of class size whether you go to state or a private, so why not save some bucks? If this leads you to Cal (the top-rated public in the country and a dam*ed good school by any measure) maybe it's not such a bad thing, but there are plenty of other situations where the impact could be pretty negative.</p>

<p>So WHY is the number viccisitude contrives misleading? If you go to page 24 of the Cal 2004/2005 Common Data Set report you will see "All unit-bearing classes at Berkeley are tracked as primary courses, and reported here under class sections". In other words, Cal can puff up their numbers to be anything they want just by adding more 1-unit seminars that meet once a week (if that) and EACH of these courses will appear in the stats just like a real class with 4 units that meets 3 times a week.</p>

<p>Don't think that's what's happening here? Think again. Take a look at the report on the Cal website for the Econ dept, a popular major. <a href="http://tinyurl.com/fwh7o%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://tinyurl.com/fwh7o&lt;/a> If you are an Econ major you're likely to start in Econ 1 (enrollment 648), then Econ 2 (287 kids), then start the upper-division with Econ 100A (371 kids) and Econ 100B (341 kids). After that you'll get into the "smaller" classes, where enrollment is always around 100 or so. Cal lists about 22 real classes that you'll choose from in Econ as an undergrad. But look at the other classes Cal offers. There are 15 Sr Honors Thesis classes, each with 3 or less enrolled. Each one of them proudly carries 1 unit so they'll show up in the Common Data Set and are indistinguishable in the class-size table from the "real" classes enrolling 100+ kids. And the 7 Field Study classes make it in too, each with 3 or less. </p>

<p>Now ask yourself: with (15+7 = 22) classes enrolling a total of less than 66 kids but listed as 22 classes in the Common Data set (a quantity equalling the 22 or so classes actually enrolling the thousands of kids taking Econ this semester), how relevant is the existence of these small classes to the experience of the average Cal student taking an Econ class? The answer is they aren't. At Cal, most kids don't take these small classes very often if at all. The Econ majors are in classes with around 100 kids, and that's once they get thru the pre-major classes with several hundred. And it's the same for other common majors.</p>

<p>In fact if you look at the actual Common Data Set numbers Cal manages to report 1,009 classes 9 or less students. Looking at what they've done in Econ, it's likely this means that of their 23,500 undergrads about 2,000 or so are taking one small class like this a semester. How relevant is this to the experience of the overall student body?</p>

<p>vicissitudes knows this if he/she is a Cal student. He knows the number he was able to cook up using the Common Data Set stats doesn't represent the reality of him/her or friends. </p>

<p>I do thank ucchris/ucsdchris for a bit of comic relief. He's the guy always posting as if UC San Diego is on par with Berkeley. The campuses are practically twins if you believe his posts (not!)</p>

22

<p>thats strange, i dont believe i have ever posted that uc san diego and berkeley were on par with each other, how strange. i have never implied as much, other than uc san diego, ucla, and uc berkeley are all top tier uc's, but thats are far as ive gone to imply similarities between uc san diego and uc berkeley. but i have seen mikemac make ridiculously stupid statements like ucla (#13 grad engineering), ucsd (#11 grad engineering), and usc (#8 grad engineering) do not have some of the best engineering departments in the california because they are not in the top 5 in the country. your ignorance, mikemac, never ceases to amaze me, hence why i never take to seriously any of your posts or your combative tone, especially when you seem to lack knowledge about much of what you post about. i love how you discount vicissitudes posts simply because he goes to berkeley and my post because i attended/attend ucsd and ucla. you bash me because i listed ucsd and ucla as two of the best in engineering in california in another post (i also listed berkeley, caltech,, and stanford) and then said it was funny i put ucsd and ucla in the list and explain yourself by saying stating that because i attended these schools i am full of it. hillarious, you should check the rankings of these schools, which are both in the top 15 graduate engineering programs in the country, before making yourself look like an idiot.</p>

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<p>No....UCs cost $15k including room and board. And No, I don't think they're great (Good schools, not for me)...since Berkeley's the only one of two that has my major (business) and I don't like Berkeley. Riverside has business, but I hate SoCal. I'm going to college out of state....where the admins actually CARE how undergraduates do.</p>

<p>No seriously:
UC Berkeley/UCLA? No thanks, I prefer UVa/UMich/Georgetown/Chicago/Swarthmore/Wesleyan.
UCSD? No thanks, I'd prefer UNC/NYU/USC/Lehigh/whatever
UCI? No thanks, I'd prefer UIUC etc
UCD/UCSC/UCR? No thanks, I'd prefer UMD/IUB etc etc</p>

<p>By the way I'm instate so whatever bias I have is going to be favorable to UCs. And I still can find reasons not to go to UCs.</p>

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<p>Sorry to bring up the Cal vs. UVa debate again, but the graduation rate at the University of Virginia is 86%. This is a school with 15000 undergrads. So yes, personalized attention, EVEN WITHIN A LARGE PUBLIC SCHOOL, is feasible.</p>

<p>By the way don't tell me "you could do econ...it's the same thing..." well you know what? My intended major is econ or business, econ where business is not available. For econ, I'd pick a school like Wesleyan, where there are 61 econ majors and 14 professor in the department (quoting the Wesleyan University Prospectus), over UCLA.</p>

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<p>ucsdchris this latest post is even more incoherent than your usual thundering, which is really saying something! Not only that, you seem unable to comprehend simple written english. If after reading my post all you could glean from it is that I "discount vicissitudes posts simply because he goes to berkeley", well, what can one say?</p>

<p>As for ucchris/ucsdchris's denial he constantly puts ucsd on par with Cal, let me give you a few ucchris/ucsdchris quotes and judge for yourself
[quote]
uci pales next to the sheer number of highly ranked departments and programs at cal, ucla, and ucsd. uci is deffiantly an up and coming school, but in the league of berkeley la and sd, not likely anytime soon.

[/quote]

[quote]
I believe u meen (sic) UCSB, UC Davis and UCI. UCSD is leaps and bounds ahead of Cal Poly SLO, as are other first tier UC's UC Berkeley and UCLA. Im not sure why u left UCI off your list of schools equivalent with Cal Poly but put on UCSD. That is very confusing.</p>

<p>Cal Poly SLO equivalents include: UCI, UCSB, UC Davis. UC's usually considered more prestigious than Cal Poly SLO include UCSD, UCLA, UC Berkeley.

[/quote]

[quote]
-haha i dont even know where to start with that. i have nothing against uiuc, but come on man. berkeley has 8 nobel laureates presently at its campus, ucsd has 10. uiuc is a wonderfull school, but it cannot compare to virginia, ucsd, and wisconsin. its deffiantly a step behind, and the current rankings prove that. i know berkeley and ucsd both have gpa's well above 4.0 and single sitting sat's above 1300.</p>

<p>-Berkeley and ucsd are both in the academic world ranking of universities, and i believe higher than uiuc.

[/quote]

[quote]
If you consider 2 rankings spots way better. berkeley is ranked 5th in political science i believe and ucsd is ranked 7th. i also believe ucla is ranked 8th. there is hardly any difference as all three are clearly some of the best poli sci departments in the country.

[/quote]

[quote]
collegemom16, i am quite knowledgable about uc davis and other uc's. and i can cite countless rankings of universities and political science departmental rankings. you can argue all you want, i also feel uc davis is a good school, but not on the level of ucsd or berkeley. berkeley and ucsd are simply overall better institutions

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, and whining about a combative tone? Here's ucsdchris at his best
[quote]
Before making ridiculous claims eastofla and vicissitudes, check the admission stats. placing ucsd with uci and uc davis is ridiculous, and placing ucsb with ucr is also ridiculous, as is calling ucsd a match for the poster.

[/quote]
Is this guy a nut case, or what? </p>

<pre><code>For more humor if you're having a slow day, watch ucsdchris slug it out with a few posters (not me, BTW) at http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=187572&page=2
</code></pre>

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<p>The UC's are wonderful schools :)</p>

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<p>super wondeful</p>

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<p>I can tell you that most Asians I know respect UCSD a lot more than UC Irvine or Davis. And forget about UCSB or UCR (the University of Chinese Retards).</p>

<p>I don't agree with the Asian mentality that UCSD is much better than Irvine or Davis, but I have had several Asian friends from high school who would go to UCSD in a heartbeat. In fact, several of my Asian friends turned down UC Irvine and Davis to go to a JUNIOR COLLEGE in the hopes of transferring to UCSD, Berkeley, or UCLA. </p>

<p>Basically, among Asians, if you don't get into UC Berkeley, UCLA, USC, or UCSD, then go to a junior college first, then transfer to one of the "real" UC schools. Of course, this tactic often backfires as well and many of those same Asians who turned down Irvine and Davis in favor of junior colleges end up going to those very same schools!</p>

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<p>futurenyustudent cracks me up thoroughly.</p>

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<p>mikemac.... I have never seen either you are ucchris post before... I just read all of the quotes you posted, and I have to say, they don't really prove your point at all.</p>

<p>UCchris's point is that the elite schools in the UC System are Berkeley, LA and San Diego. I don't see where he ever says that UCSD is the same as Berkeley or LA.... all of the quotes you posted seem to just be him saying that UCSD is a better school than Cal Poly, UCD, UCI and UCSB... which it is.</p>

<p>What's your point mikemac?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
futurenyustudent cracks me up thoroughly.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why is that? Is it because I prefer to actually figure out what I want and pursue them?</p>

<p>My mind's made up: I'm not doing UCs....case closed.</p>

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<p>He's talking about your lack of logic.</p>

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<p>Did anyone else look at UCs in additition to top Us and LACs? To be honest, I couldn't believe the difference. The huge classes, the red tape to even get admissions questions answered, the lack of enthusiasm I saw on the UC campuses I visited. Not to mention that I couldn't meet any of the professors I wanted to much less get them to answer emails! Lucky to have parents willing to pay for privates, they came off my list pretty quickly.</p>

34

<p>Just_Browsing, thank you. i was just about to state exactly what you pointed out. no where did i ever say ucsd was the equivalent to berkeley. just because i said ucsd ucla uc berkeley are better than uc davis, does not meen that berkeley and ucsd are automatically equivalent. let me state this in another form to make it easier for mikemac to comprehend. if i said that harvard and duke are better than boston college, does that meen that i believe duke is the equivalent to harvard. of course not. you look through all 500+ of my posts and dont even come up with one quote to backs up your point. in one of your posted quotes of mine i put:</p>

<p>"If you consider 2 rankings spots way better. berkeley is ranked 5th in political science i believe and ucsd is ranked 7th. i also believe ucla is ranked 8th. there is hardly any difference as all three are clearly some of the best poli sci departments in the country."</p>

<p>the best you can do is quote me where i stated that there was not a huge difference between the POLI SCI DEPARTMENTS at berkeley, ucsd, and ucla because the rankings had them respectively at 5,7, and 8. then you imply that i was talking about the entire university. people on this thread are not stupid, they can see i was talking about the POLI SCI DEPARMENT, obviously not the university on a whole. its funny how you try to mislead by trying to pass it off as though i was talking about the university on a whole. do you disagree that poli sci departments ranked 5, 7, and 8 are probably pretty similar on their quality level? most people would, so why would you list that as a ridiculous quote. on another quote i stated that:</p>

<p>"Cal Poly SLO equivalents include: UCI, UCSB, UC Davis. UC's usually considered more prestigious than Cal Poly SLO include UCSD, UCLA, UC Berkeley.</p>

<p>Do you disagree with this? this is general common knowledge, if you know anything about uc's you would understand this. ask anyone on this thread, this is generally accepted. why would you post this making it seem like it is ridiculous or trying to imply again that i put ucsd as an equivalent to berkeley? again just because you state three schools as better than three other schools this does not meen all three schools in the one level are equivalent. are you completely retarded? you are making a fool out of yourself. in another quote you listed i stated:</p>

<p>"uci pales next to the sheer number of highly ranked departments and programs at cal, ucla, and ucsd. uci is deffiantly an up and coming school, but in the league of berkeley la and sd, not likely anytime soon."</p>

<p>again look up departmental rankings. you will see that berkeley, ucla, and ucsd all have significantly more high rated departments than uci. again, just because i listed the top three uc's, or top tier of uc's does not meen that all three top tier uc's are the equivalent of each other. berkeley has far more top programs than both ucla or ucsd. but that was not what i was pointing out in my quote that you listed from another post. i love how you go through me entire history and put different quotes together, numerous of them i am referring to departmental rankings, and then try to imply that i am either saying ucsd is on the exact level of berkeley or that you try to mislead and imply when i am talking about departmental rankings of certain departments that i am talking about an overall university ranking. you are hillarious. i just find it funny how you try to mislead. you must obviously know you are wrong in what you have stated if you have to consciously try to mislead in your postings. in another quote you listed that i had posted on again another thread i put:</p>

<p>-"Berkeley and ucsd are both in the academic world ranking of universities, and i believe higher than uiuc."</p>

<p>How on earth does this even come close to me stating that berkeley and ucsd are equivalents? what the hell are you even trying to say by posting that. i put that berkeley and ucsd are both ranked higher than uiuc on the academic world ranking of universities. how does that imply that berkeley and ucsd are of the same ranking. obviously it does not. you must be retarded. in another quote you listed for me that i posted again on another different thread i stated:</p>

<p>"collegemom16, i am quite knowledgable about uc davis and other uc's. and i can cite countless rankings of universities and political science departmental rankings. you can argue all you want, i also feel uc davis is a good school, but not on the level of ucsd or berkeley. berkeley and ucsd are simply overall better institutions."</p>

<p>Again, am i incorrect? i pointed out to the poster that ucsd, ucla and berkeley had significantly better POLI SCI DEPARTMENTS than uc davis. do you disagree? if not, then why would you post this? you make no sense! at the end i also state than berkeley and ucsd are better overall institutions than is uc davis. again uc davis is a great school, probably not on the level of ucsd and certainly not berkeley. just because i listed ucsd and berkeley in the same quote does not meen i believe they are equivalents. again you must have just searched in all my 500+ posts for quotes which happened to have berkeley and ucsd together in them. this is hillarious. in again another quote from another post you listed that i stated:</p>

<p>"Before making ridiculous claims eastofla and vicissitudes, check the admission stats. placing ucsd with uci and uc davis is ridiculous, and placing ucsb with ucr is also ridiculous, as is calling ucsd a match for the poster."</p>

<p>i believe placing ucsd with uci and uc davis for admissions difficulty is not correct. if you dont believe me check the school average admit stats for the schools. ucsd has well over a 4.0 and a 1300 sat and 40% acceptance rate, while uci and uc davis had averages around 3.8 and 1220 sat's and acceptance rates in the mid to high 60%'s. nothing ridiculous about what i posted there. i also stated that putting uc riverside with ucsb for admission difficulty was also ridiculous. again do you disagree? i dont believe i am in the wrong here either! ucsb's average is around a 3.9 and 1230 sat and an acceptance rate about 50%, while uc riversides stats are around a 3.6 and 1120 sat and 70%+ acceptance rate. why would u post this quote and call it ridiculous. again my post seems correct to me. You then closed out your post by stating yourself:</p>

<p>"Is this guy a nut case, or what?"</p>

<p>If you think what my stated in my posts makes me a nut, then i plead guilty. you must be retarded. everything stated in your post makes you look like an idiot. you clearly know nothing about the uc system. you further ducked my original question to you on how you bashed on me for stating stating again in another post that some of the top engineering schools in california were: "(in no particular order): uc berkeley, caltech, stanford, usc, ucsd, ucla." again, you never answered how that was incorrect. those are the best engineering schools in california and all are ranked within the top 15 graduate schools of engieering nationally. you had the nerve to imply then that because i listed ucsd in that list it must be because i am bias and full of it. hillarious. check the national rankings you moron, i believe ucsd is number 10 or 11 nationally, ucla, is 13 or so nationally, and usc is 8th nationally. all clearly should be included amongst california's top engineering programs. im still waiting for your reply on this on how im wrong. again, just because you list ucsd and berkeley in the same list of top engineering programs, this does not meen they are equivalent you idiot. haha you really need to stop picking fights in posts about uc's, because you clearly lack any info about them. also, stay off engineering posts as you dont seem to be to bright in that area of study either. i still cant believe what an &^% you made of yourself. hillarious. you cant even put together a valid argument for yourself, even when you browse through all 500+ of my posts looking for points. then try to manipulate what i say, implying that when i am really talking about departmental rankings, that i am somehow talking about university rankings. or that when i state that two schools are better than another, that i must then be implying that those better two schools must be equivalent. hillarious. stop making an *&^ out of yourself.</p>

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<p>i wouldn't choose any UC's over Stanford or pomona</p>

36

<p>i wouldnt choose any UC over stanford but LA and Cal over pomona (i don't dig the whole LAC - intimate touchy feely kinda education)</p>

37

<p>I'd choose Pomona, Harvey Mudd, Claremont McKenna, USC, Stanford, and Occidental over UCLA and UCal.</p>

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<p>ucsdchris is always good for a chuckle ;) I</p>

<p>n an earlier post of mine he's referencing about Cal Poly and other CA engineering schools I wrote
[quote]
if you want to see how what a survey of deans and senior college faculty says about undergrad engineering education, take a look at the US News survey. </p>

<p>In the ranking on a 1-5 scale you can see that Stanford, Cal-tech, and Berkeley are rated 4.6 or higher. There is a significant drop-off to the rest of the schools in the list above. All the rest of the schools ucsdchris lists are in the same range with scores ranging from 3.5 to 3.7. These are still fine schools, make no mistake about that, but to try to lump ucsd in with the top 3 is a sham that ucsdchris delights in pulling.

[/quote]
To which ucsdchris responded
[quote]
New California University Engineering Rankings (according to mikemac):</p>

<p>Elite schools of engineering in California:</p>

<p>Stanford, Berkeley, Cal Tech (because they are ranked in the top 5 nationally graduate ranking) and Cal Poly SLO (I have no idea how they got in this league, but according to mikemac SLO is better than ucsd and ucla for engineering)</p>

<p>Mediocre Schools of Engineering in California:</p>

<p>USC, UCSD, UCLA (Since they are only ranked in the top 8-13 nationally graduate ranking)

[/quote]
This guy has serious issues in comprehending english as his outburst shows. Did I write Cal Poly was an elite school? No. Did I say the other schools were mediocre or did I write "These are still fine schools, make no mistake about that"?</p>

<p>It's almost like there's a scrambler inside his head when he reads something; the nouns stick but the meaning of the sentences gets all mixed up.</p>

<p>Let's face it: ucsdchris is on a campaign to convince the world that there are 3 top UC schools, placing ucsd up there with cal and ucla. He might be just about the only person in the state who believes it, but that doesn't stop him from posting as if it was true and going ballistic when anyone calls him on it.</p>

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<p>What outburst? I don't see an outburst in the above post. UCChris just added to the info that you had already stated...Obviously you guys have a problem with each other why don't you take it to PM instead of bogging down this thread. :)</p>

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<p>My kid got his job offered from a major defense contractor 4 months before he graduated from UCSD back in 2004. Now he is working on his grad-level engineering major at Berkeley (full ride with stipend).</p>

<p>I think most UCs are great universities. It all comes down to you; the individual.</p>

<p>Do you really want to work hard at school?
Do you have passion for your profession?</p>