Arguing over course selections

Parents Forum
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<p>Tis is not helicoptering. That would be changing the classes or contacting the advisor directly. Communicating to your children when they are in a new situation and making an obvious mistake is part of parenting.</p>

<p>OP in my D’s freshman year her advisor gave her two 200 level lab science courses. We knew no better and it was a disaster. When she had emergency surgery at the end of second semester, her GPA was already so compromised that it couldn’t be fixed. Oldfort is completely right. The transition can be more difficult that expected and there is no way to know that. Your son is making a mistake and the consequences could be very significant. Advisors are only as good as the information in front of them. If your son didnt communicate well and didnt ask questions, then the advising is likely worthless.</p>

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<p>A warning? D1 consulted us about her first semester’s course choices. I gave her my view of not over loading the first semester. Last year when D2 was working on her schedule, she consulted her older sister instead of us. You know, first time college students do not become know-it-all right away. D1 told D2 to choose more courses than she really needed, so she could drop them if they were too hard or if she didn’t like the professor. Most students would go over their schedule with their parents (or someone they trust) the first time they are doing it. There is nothing wrong with it.</p>

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<p>My d is going to be a senior this year. Her advisor is the professor she is TA for and who is supervising her thesis. He is a great advisor, but she still runs things by me. Not because she couldn’t do it alone, but because talking about it is natural and not a reflection of a failing on either of our parts.</p>

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<p>As someone who teaches those remedial classes (although you might never guess that from my posts :P), I find that highly offensive. My students are most definitely NOT ESL and LD, and they do NOT write like third graders. Every year I have kids who took AP or DE English.</p>

<p>OP, it’s difficult to figure out what does on in the advising session sometimes. Some faculty advisors just aren’t that good. Sometimes, students insist they’re going to take what they want, prerequisites be damned (most advisors can override them, for instance if the student claims to have taken a course as DE and the transcript hasn’t been evaluated yet or the student just convinces the advisor he’s ready). Let your son settle down a bit and then approach him again. Schedules can be changed right up until classes start.</p>

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<p>It sounds like the OP has explained the situation to his son, and he is not going to change his opinion. You might try a more gentle suggestion approach, such as encouraging a quick email/text to his advisor about not taking the prerequisites. But being an adult in college, it is ultimately his decision. Maybe it will go well… maybe it won’t. Sometimes one needs to learn through experience rather than a screaming match with parents. You mentioned that the university insisted that students choose classes without a parent. There is a reason for that rule.</p>

<p>I’ve taken courses without having done the prerequisites several times and almost never had an issue. I did have an issue in my freshman year with some physics classes. My school had 3 levels of physics – one that was primarily for humanities students, one that was primarily for science & engineering students, and the highest level that was primarily for physics majors who had taken AP physics. I wasn’t a physics major and hadn’t taken AP physics, yet I still signed up for the highest level, since I always took the highest level classes available. I managed a good grade, but I probably worked harder in that class than in any class during my college career. It was a valuable learning experience – both for learning about choosing classes and for learning the physics material covered in the class.</p>

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<p>Yesterday ~ very important. It happened yesterday. Son is stressed, and you just want to get it right. But you two need time and you have it. You probably have all summer to drop/add classes. You should help him, just give it some time (weeks) before discussing again.</p>

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<p>If he’s taken a large number of dual courses and received a lot of AP credit, it is entirely possible that the 300 level courses are appropriate.</p>

<p>I went back and saw that he did not sit for the AP English exam. That’s a shame. He may have completed his English requirement had he done so. I doubt seriously that he will need remedial English. He can probably take that English class next semester. I would not worry too much. </p>

<p>D2 is a Music Ed major that went in with 35 college hours and most of her core curriculum was complete. She needed one math and one science. All of the rest were music classes.</p>

<p>Give him some time to cool off. I like the email idea.</p>

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<p>On the other hand, what I have seen of college advising is that it tends to have a bias toward recommending lower level courses (e.g. encouraging students to repeat their AP credit, even if they know the material well), so it seems unlikely that the OP’s son was pushed by college advising into taking overly advanced courses relative to his background.</p>

<p>It is the case that scheduling systems at colleges do not necessarily block students from registering for courses due to not meeting prerequisites. Doing so may be a more complex problem at the registration level (as opposed to at the department level), since it would have to have varying rules for prerequisite substitutions that may not be present on the transcript (e.g. foreign language skill from high school or heritage ability, or graduate students taking graduate course work based on prerequisite course work that they took at their undergraduate school).</p>

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<p>There is a big difference between “My kid asked me my opinion on their course choices and I gave it to them.” and “I am trying to force my kid to take exactly the classes I want them to take because I alone know what’s best for them.”</p>

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<p>I noticed you said you son is a music major, often music classes are different. If the music theory class is the 300 class, he might not need to take the lower division music classes because they are basic and would be boring review (the whole first class might be how to read music). There also may be some ensembles that are 300 level.
I think you should not reach out to the advisor but let the son take care of it.</p>

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<p>The helicoptering, which you freely admit to, is exactly why he is refusing to listen to you, and the whole “my advisor knows better” retort is an attempt at age-appropriate independence. I’m not saying he’s right; most likely you are and have read the prerequisites, etc correctly. So you’re in a bind, and I feel for you.
Kids don’t magically “start to get it” if you helicopter. Right now you are probably spending a lot of parental capital on this without getting any result. I think three things are essential when making this transition to parent of adult:

  1. Shift the language. No more “Make flash cards of each class you need to take” (that was your idea, not his, right?). No more “You signed up for the wrong classes.” Your language from now on should have the vocab of a trusted advisor willing to offer an opinion if desired-because that’s what you do hope to be one day, right? You can express the same ideas, but couch them differently. For example, in this case, you might have said “Wow, interesting classes! Hey, I’m sure your advisor probably mentioned this, or you looked it up yourself, but when I was in college people sometimes overlooked the prereqs for courses, and boy did they suffer for it in the end! Let me know if you need to know more about that. See ya! I’m off to pull some weeds outside.” And then see what happens.
  2. Stop being the bad guy, and let consequences be the bad guy instead. Tell your son that there is money to pay for 4 years and that’s it. Period. Thats just the way it is. If he makes a mistake with scheduling, which is easy to do, he will have to pay for any extra time at college himself. He can feel free to come to you if he would like a second pair of eyes to go over his schedule. Then back off and stick to this.
  3. Your son needs to believe that you believe in his ability to handle himself at college. Otherwise he won’t believe he is capable, and he won’t be. Try to use supportive language. “I know you can do this on your own. It was smart of you to talk this over with your advisor” etc before adding that little “but” -in an advisory tone.
    It’s a hard transition to make. The temptation is to come down too heavy where one shouldn’t (telling your nearly adult kid what to do) and too light where one shouldn’t (picking up the slack, monetary or otherwise when the kid messes up). Both pitfalls keep your kid underdeveloped and can create a bad relationship.
    I hope it all works out - I know you must be feeling a lot if tension.</p>
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<p>I am a former college professor, also just graduated again with a clinical doctorate in another area entirely. So, I have been in school for many, many years and have taught college courses for many years also. I am also the parent of a college sophomore. I will confess that I absolutely do not feel qualified to tell my son what courses he should register for. He has a different major than i did (though still in arts and sciences and still leaning more towards sciences than arts) and goes to a different university. I showed him how to figure out a schedule his first semester such that courses were not in the same time slots, and that was about it. I also feel this is something he has to figure out on his own using the resources at hand, and that this decision-making process will serve him well. The next semester and thereafter he has been on his own. I don’t even know exactly what grades he is getting except that they are good enough to qualify for a good driver discount on our auto insurance. I guess I trust him to make good decisions. (Testobsessed, I like your advice.)</p>

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<p>I don’t like the idea of an incoming Fall freshman taking 3XX courses unless they are very strong in those disciplines and already have the AP/IB credits for the lower division. and, even then, I’d be careful with that first semester.</p>

<p>Fall semester is a challenge for incoming frosh. It’s their first time away from home while in school. No one is around to help organize, find things, etc, and new frosh often stumble a bit during this time. </p>

<p>My younger son took 3XX Cell Biology as a Fall frosh because he already had his lower division bio credits. He was the ONLY frosh in the class. It was intimidating. Thank goodness he got an A in the class, but he is a very strong student. I would not have advised most students to consider this even if they have the prereqs…maybe do it Spring semester. </p>

<p>As to your son’s point that the “advisors know more than you do.” Well, advisors aren’t geniuses and they don’t know these incoming frosh at all. Maybe if the advisor had known that your son isn’t able to go right into Frosh Comp, the person would have realized that your son isn’t a super strong student.</p>

<p>Your concerns are correct.</p>

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<p>Nothing OP has said would lead one to believe her S is not ready to go into freshman English. OP worries that might be the case, but her S took AP English and made a B.</p>

<p>Wondering if there was a MUSIC department assessment of your S’s skill and knowledge level, OP, since all the classes he is taking are in the music department. In music 300 level classes are often electives in the major and are often not more challenging than the lower level classes. In some cases, they are actually much easier and very enjoyable. It just depends on the program. Does your S currently compose? And has he received any training thus far in that area? In my music major’s school there was an audition PLUS an entry exam of their music theory and aural skills. They used the results, in part, to place each student.</p>

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<p>There is a middle course between helicoptering and hands off.</p>

<p>The attitude expressed here does sound like helicoptering. When parents peruse course catalogues and have “courses in mind” that is going to far.</p>

<p>I think it’s appropriate to say, "Sound thing about that schedule (okay to list) doesn’t feel right to me. I think the counselor may have made a mistake about (blank), but that’s all.</p>

<p>It seems really unfortunate to go into frosh year with flash cards of the courses that need to completed. Courses change a universities, majors change, and I would have felt strangled if I had started that way, and so would my kids. They each changed majors, too.</p>

<p>I made the unfortunate mistake of taking two junior year courses frosh year. I aced both of them and it showed me my future path. Stranger things have happened.</p>

<p>And perhaps the most important point is that people learn from mistakes. If we don’t allow our kids to make mistakes, they can never truly master life. What happens when we’re not here for them to “run things by us”?</p>

<p>Both of my kids blundered. Both are in good grad programs. Perhaps if they hadn’t blundered, they would be in Ivy grad programs. Or perhaps they wouldn’t be in grad programs at all.</p>

<p>The idea of graduating in four years is certainly very important for most families when college is so expensive, but it shouldn’t be a cudgel used to promote anxiety and eliminate any risks at all from the kid’s life.</p>

<p>For most people, an inexpensive course can be taken over a summer if a mistake is made.</p>

<p>If a counselor recommends four courses, perhaps that is sensible for a first time frosh. In many cases AP credit will make up for the missing course. If that is not the case, there is a discussion to be had, but perhaps an intersession course or a summer make=up course at an inexpensive local public or on-line public can bridge the gap and allow the kid to blossom.</p>

<p>To my mind the worst scenario is for a parent to have mapped out a kids entire college career and expect the kid to get in lockstep behind it.</p>

<p>And on a very positive note, this child really loves music. He’s so excited that he doesn’t want to give up the courses that thrill him for the nuts and bolts. He sounds like a kid in a candy store. There’s a discussion to be had there, of course, about stomach aches, but tread lightly.</p>

<p>The Navajo say to get children back on the path with a feather. I’ve always liked that.</p>

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<p>Something else to note is that one of the valuable aspects of going to a four year school as a frosh, instead of starting at a community college and then transferring as a junior, is that one has an opportunity to take upper division courses in the first two years.</p>

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<p>I’ve told this cautionary tale here before. When I was completing my PhD, i was a TA for a calculus based physics I course. About 3 weeks in, one girl came up to me and said she was totally lost on the math. She had never taken any calculus, even at high school. The advisor had said she needed a science course and the physics I should be fine. She ended up having to drop, even though it made her go below full time (too late to add anything else). </p>

<p>I’ve made it clear to S and D that they need to advocate for themselves and not trust the advisors to get it right.</p>

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<p>What defines a 300-level class differs from school to school though. For instance, at Michigan, many 300-level and 400-level are still essentially intro classes with no prerequisites (or very minor prerequisites like Calc 1/AB or Linear Algebra or something). You really have to know whether it’s appropriate based on the class rather than based on the number.</p>

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<p>Do yourself (and possibly your son as well) a favor, and read through the information at this college/university website and see if any CLEP exams are accepted for credit or placement, and as what. The CLEP exams are roughly the same price as an AP but take less time and can be taken at any date or time during the year that you can schedule one at the closest place that offers them. </p>

<p>If your son can nail the appropriate English CLEP, he may never have to take another English course in his life.</p>

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<p>^^^^Ouch said the English prof.</p>