<p>akash..thats right..why is that the palestinians have to suffer for the wests and the europeans mistakes?..</p>
<p>"My both grandfathers died there, extricating your .... nation, my one grandmother died from hunger during this war. My own nation (it's not Russians) lost 3,6 million people.
What did they do? They extricated YOU!!"</p>
<p>Star, don't tell me i owe you anything. Its not to your advantage to make this conversation personal because my family lost a WHOLE LINE of people. First, the Soviets robbed them of their wealth and then the Germans killed them. What the hell are you talking about. You didn't extricate ME. I don't owe you anything. The Russians were fighting for themselves. And you as well as every other Russian lost so many people because of the stupidity of the Soviet leadership - because Stalin did not take the threats of German invasion seriously, because he did not prepare for war early enough. He exiled Russia's most valuable military leaders. It wasn't the Germans who developed blitzkrieg. It was the Russians. Stalin just sent millions of people to their deaths in an attempt to numerically overpower the Germans. Maybe your relatives were one of those people who were sent into the lines without a gun...</p>
<p>I don't care if you're offended. I don't care what radical history teacher you asked for information. Don't tell me i owe you anything. </p>
<p>And don't call me a representative of either America or Jews. The majority of people are probably not like me, i'll admit. They are too willing to forgive and forget everything and just act like we're all friends. Not me.</p>
<p>dont be ridiculous. the USA was the "arsenal of democracy" for the entire war leading up to pearl harbor, the armed forces and the people just werent prepared for a full scale involvement in the war yet.</p>
<p>and im not disputing whether the palestinians should have a state. i think they should. the reasoning behind placing israel where it is now located was a) there was land that was being given freedom that was formerly a possession of England there, so they had land to give away, and b) (most importantly) it was the ancestral homeland of the jews. and, to the western leaders of the time, not recognizing the differences between palestinians and other arabs, assumed the two-state method would work.</p>
<p>btw, there is nor was any requirement for the palestinians to leave, and in fact they lived in relative peace with their jewish neighbors untill arafat and the fatah people came back from libya in the 80s</p>
<p>I'm over this discussion. It's gone down the path of name-calling, flames, and racism.</p>
<p>I'm over this discussion. It's gone down the path of name-calling, flames, and racism.</p>
<p>Maybe you can try to return it, Hippodrome..</p>
<p>Northrams, if to say about real jewish land, it's Abissinia (Ephiopia), Egyptians caught them there several thousand years BC, then as the legend tells, Moisey led 'en to Palestine, and there had already been Palestinians' ancestors. But it's according to legend.</p>
<p>btw, there is nor was any requirement for the palestinians to leave, and in fact they lived in relative peace with their jewish neighbors untill arafat and the fatah people came back from libya in the 80s
And what about Israeli-Arabian wars in 1960s?</p>
<p>Star, don't tell me i owe you anything. Its not to your advantage to make this conversation personal because my family lost a WHOLE LINE of people.</p>
<p>I also lost a whole line (if it means something to you), but my family didn't live quietly in America, like yours. And you said Germans killed 'em, not Red Army. My ancestors came through entire war, and were killed already in Poland )btw, near concentrating camp), and in german. they fought with guns, coz USSR in the end created very huge military potential.</p>
<p>German was the STRONGEST army of that time. You must realize that. they sent 5 million people to the East. Then some million more. The minimal casualties we could have is 10-12 million people. many died from hunger. Not just Stalin was plain stupid, but Hitler and Barbaross' plan were very smart. And if USSR were democratic state, we would have never overpowered Germans. </p>
<p>I don't care if you're offended.</p>
<p>So get out this discussion, rude and offensive racist!! And care about yourself! You have nothing here in this thread!! If you know nothing about history, policy or just about life, and only can say you're the best in the world, this place is not for you!!</p>
<p>They are too willing to forgive and forget everything and just act like we're all friends. Not me.</p>
<p>So you confess that you're intolerant chauvinist, racist and instigator of America-Russia cold relations</p>
<p>Germany was definitely a formidable opponent, but if you think that Stalin's leadership didn't contribute to such a great loss on the part of the Soviets, you're seriously misinformed. Germany started the war in 1939. It attacked Russia in 1941. Had Stalin had ANY sense of military planning or insight, he would have been preparing Russia's industry and mobilizing its military so as to prepare for a defense of the Eastern front. Even though Germany was its ally at the time, Stalin must have realized that Hitler might soon have ambitions to invade the Soviet Union. In fact, he was told this many times by advisors. But he ignored that advice. So, when Germany attacked, Russia was completely unprepared. Tell me how a huge country like Russia could be so unprepared as to be beaten back for about 2 years by German armies thousands of miles away from home before the war finally turned. </p>
<p>You and I both know USSR's potential because at the end of the war, it really was manufacturing and mobilizing at a great rate. So it had the potential and it made use of it in only a few years. Why didn't Stalin mobilize and industrialize BEFORE the country was invaded? Why didn't he PLAN? There is no excuse here. The Communists screwed up the entire country. </p>
<p>"And if USSR were democratic state, we would have never overpowered Germans."</p>
<p>That's not true at all. I agree that democracy does not work for the military, but it does not have to. Look at the US. We're a democracy, but the military is kept completely separate. In a war, Congress is not going to bicker and argue. Its going to transfer a huge amount of power to the president to wield like a dictator in foreign policy. A totalitarian state is not necessary to possess military strength. That was pretty much proven in the Cold War right?</p>
<p>Star, i'm not going to hide the fact that you are offensive and irritating to me. However, i'll try to be civil and stick to facts from this point on if you will.</p>
<p>I really don't know where you're getting that i'm an instigator of America-Russia cold relations. On the contrary. I told you that i don't hate Russia. I hate Communism and anti-Semitism, things that have unfortunately come to represent Russia and overshadow the thousands of years of rich history behind it. However, Communism is now gone (on paper at least). And the government is no longer as oppressive as it once was. I'm all for a new and improved Russia.</p>
<p>And on the contrary, i would love to see US-Russian relations improve. I think that they can share similar stances on terrorism. Furthermore, i'm a very practical person. Europe is practically powerless today. The 3 superpowers are US, Russia, and China. These are the only countries that i feel are even worth developing strong relations with because an alliance of these three is what holds the key to long-term peace. So, i'm not at all what you make me out to be. </p>
<p>What i meant by my comments was that i'm not a passive person. If some European or Muslim hates me, i'm not going to advocate peace with that person.</p>
<p>However, i'll try to be civil and stick to facts from this point on if you will.</p>
<p>[..timeo Danaos et dona ferentes] Ok, I agree.</p>
<p>First of all, I never support Stalin, besides his childish foreign policy, he also killed a lot of Soviet people in 1930s, he destroyed unique cultures of Middle Asia (though saved Caucasian one, coz he's Georgian). He began the war in Spain against Franko already in 1938, then in Finland in 1939. </p>
<p>You and I both know USSR's potential because at the end of the war, it really was manufacturing and mobilizing at a great rate. So it had the potential and it made use of it in only a few years.</p>
<p>Here, you are not completely right. Since 1939 Stalin began modernizing military mashines and army, because after wars in Spain and Finland Soviets realized how Red Army was weak. The rate of modernizing was maximal, it engaged everybody from 13- to 70-year-olds. So army began to prepare even in 1938-1939; the crucial mistake was the absense of mobilization until the very attack, and absence of army near Western frontier.</p>
<p>I hate Communism and anti-Semitism</p>
<p>I do also. I am for America, as you may not see. I want to help it to save its leadership. </p>
<p>And i want to explain "the jew affair" finally. I always (like many others) value e.g. Einstein, Kapitsa, Landau, Bor and so on, but there is also one group in jewish society - Zionist (radical Judaists). They live only for prosperity of their own nation, they are like Nazists, who want to destroy all other nations. Because of them, Europeans and Russians (who happened to live for thousand years near 'em) hate all jews, but, as no every Russian is communist, no every jew is Zionist. Ariel Sharon is one of Zionists, while Shimon Peres was not. In 1994 (?) he and Arafat(!) signed the pact about peace in Middle East. they got Nobel prize for this. But zionists killed Peres.. so Arafat could create the peace, unlike many may think.</p>
<p>When I went to Israel a couple of years back,I learnt that they had 3 classes of Jews-liberals,moderates(distinguised by wearing a skull-cap) ,and extremists(wearing black suits and hats,having hair in ringlets and so on).It is these extremists who are responsible for most of the current tension which arose after 2000</p>
<p>"wearing black suits and hats,having hair in ringlets and so on"</p>
<p>This is how you distinguish an extremist? Because hes wearing a suit? These are just Orthodox Jews who view religion in a traditional sense. That's a pretty biased comment your making. Liberals and moderates are alright, right? But conservatives aren't on your list...they're "extremists." Maybe you're liberal, but don't establish your own views as fact.</p>
<p>This is what my guide told me,and he was a liberal Jew.But Ure right,I was wrong in distinguishing them on the basis of physical appearance.But then,these are not my terms,they are those of Israelis.</p>
<p>"Northrams, if to say about real jewish land, it's Abissinia (Ephiopia), Egyptians caught them there several thousand years BC, then as the legend tells, Moisey led 'en to Palestine, and there had already been Palestinians' ancestors. But it's according to legend."</p>
<p>stardragon, the american indians were originally from asia and crossed the land bridge. do u think they consider asia to be their ancestral homeland?</p>
<p>"And what about Israeli-Arabian wars in 1960s?"</p>
<p>well when israel was attacked in the 1960's by numerous arab nations, there wasnt peace internationally. but WITHIN israel, there was relative peace and prosperity among and between the palestinians and the israelis until arafat showed up from exile. that cannot be disputed. it is a fact.</p>
<p>"Here, you are not completely right. Since 1939 Stalin began modernizing military mashines and army, because after wars in Spain and Finland Soviets realized how Red Army was weak. "</p>
<p>Sorry, but when hitler invaded, the soviet military was woefully out of date. most were still fighting with circa WW1 rifles and weapons. and though the "war in finland" i.e. the soviet invasion of finland after a deal with hitler served to train the troops a bit, they were not on the front when hitler attacked, they were still pillaging finland. and btw, a tremendous percentage of the soviets military buildup until maybe 1943-ish was due to the "sale" (meaning give away) from the US to the soviets of machinery and supplies.</p>
<p>"stardragon, the american indians were originally from asia and crossed the land bridge. do u think they consider asia to be their ancestral homeland?"</p>
<p>So according to your reasoning,the Jews were orignally from Isreal,but they migrated to Europe 2000 years back.So why should Israel be considered their ancestral homeland?
What right does the state of Isreal have to invite Jews from all over the world to settle on Palestinian soil?</p>
<p>"But WITHIN israel, there was relative peace and prosperity among and between the palestinians and the israelis until arafat showed up from exile. that cannot be disputed. it is a fact."</p>
<p>And how was it achieved?By expelling hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Western Israel, which is fertile and on the Mediterreanean sea and now has the major cities of Israel.And incidentally without any compensatiion for their property and lands.</p>
<p>Northrams,what about Israel's attack on Egypt in collusion with Britain and France in ordert to gain control over the Suez Canal?</p>
<p>I thought i might join this discussion just to share some general knowledge that might help the conversation. Ill also list my sources so you know im not "BS"ing.</p>
<p>First, in 1880 the arab, not palestinian (il explain why in a sec), was about half a million according to the ottaman empire in a census done appx at that time. Today it is around two and a half million. The British noted that from 1880 until 1930, arabs were flocking to palestine because of an improvement in health services, water and power, and sanitary systems built by jews. Land was never seized by jews, it was bought and was registered first by the ottamans and then by the UK (they still have the records).</p>
<p>Palestine, under arab rule, has never been a country or entity of it's own. During the Ottaman rule from 1516 to 1918, Palestine was split into "sanjaks" (districts) and each of these were grouped into "vilayets" (territories). The largest part was ruled by Damascus (Syria). This is why most Arabs at the time didnt know what Palestine was since it was refered to as Southern Syria. At the time of the partition (1947) there was a jewish majority in the land alloted to it (538,000 jews; 397,000 arabs according to the UN). </p>
<p>I believe someone said that Palestians have been living there for thousands of years. To be accurate, the world "palestine" (palestina) was invited by the romans and didnt refer to the inhabitants, just the land. The arabs have been there since the seventh century. The jews were there about 2500 years before that according to anthropoligists.
This is the really interesting part. The first arabs to make it to Israel were survivors of Muhammad's bloody massacres (those who didnt accept Islam). According to Mohummad "two religions can not exist on the (arab) penninusula". This is all in the Koran, read the part about "Khaibar". The jews helped take muslims in during the crusades when jews and muslims were massacred. THere's so much more history to disscuss but my point is don't just throw out facts and figures you randomly hear cause chances are they're not correct.</p>
<p>By the way, I'm sure the six million jews that died during the hollocaust take comfort in knowing they control america today. Or let me guess that's just jewish propaganda too. I bet the pogroms, inquisition, "aleliot dam" ( a muslim progrom ordered under the "laws of omar"), crusades, and just general massacres are all made up. </p>
<p>Those damn jews have some nerve wanting to rebuild thier nation for self-defence. Maybe we should kill them...or is that anti-semitism?</p>
<p>"But WITHIN israel, there was relative peace and prosperity among and between the palestinians and the israelis until arafat showed up from exile. that cannot be disputed. it is a fact."</p>
<p>And how was it achieved?By expelling hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Western Israel, which is fertile and on the Mediterreanean sea and now has the major cities of Israel.And incidentally without any compensatiion for their property and lands."</p>
<p>I would say that that's not true but you wouldn't listen to me so dont take my word. </p>
<p>Mark Twain made a visit to Israel in 1867, i wont quote it cause its way too long but he says there was nothing in the jezreal valley, the galile, jericho, tiberias, and the coast until jaffa. read it!
mark twain, the innocents abroad
pg 349-442</p>
<p>If you knew anything about the history, then you would know that the closest arab cities to the coast were and still are Jenin, Acre, Tulkarm, Ramla, Nablus and Ramallah. From Haifa unitl Jaffa, which is the majority of the coast there were NO arabs. Not a little, none. They preffered staying close to the holy cities. </p>
<p>Another interesting fact, the first country in the middle east to give arabs a vote was Israel. There are entire units in the IDF made up of Bedouhins and Druz. In a poll by the New York Times, 92% of Israeli-Arabs prefer to stay Israeli then live anywhere else in the middle east. Most commen answer was that they feel more free in Israel than in palestine, jordan, egypt, lebanan, syria, etc.. (December 2002)</p>
<p>Great post. Thanks a lot for the input. No Palestinians were ever forcefully "expelled" from the territory. </p>
<p>"What right does the state of Isreal have to invite Jews from all over the world to settle on Palestinian soil?"</p>
<p>Umm...its a country. It can do whatever it wants. Israel was founded because of the notion that Jews needed a homeland after all the persecution they faced in Europe. Therefore, Israel today is living up to its word and accepts Jews from all over the world.</p>
<p>I know I'm posting way too much but i just started reading back and i must say to this star guy that with all due respect you need to check your sources. Some of this is really absurd.</p>
<p>"And i want to explain "the jew affair" finally. I always (like many others) value e.g. Einstein, Kapitsa, Landau, Bor and so on, but there is also one group in jewish society - Zionist (radical Judaists). They live only for prosperity of their own nation, they are like Nazists, who want to destroy all other nations. Because of them, Europeans and Russians (who happened to live for thousand years near 'em) hate all jews, but, as no every Russian is communist, no every jew is Zionist. Ariel Sharon is one of Zionists, while Shimon Peres was not. In 1994 (?) he and Arafat(!) signed the pact about peace in Middle East. they got Nobel prize for this. But zionists killed Peres.. so Arafat could create the peace, unlike many may think."</p>
<p>The word Zionist means someone who is for Jerusalem (ie: Zion is jerusalem). What nations have they destroyed? The russian pogroms happened in 1881. That's more than 50 years before the state of Israel. What caused that? The Nazi's were 10 years before. WHat caused that?
THe pact you're refering to in 94 was called Oslo and it wasnt an agreement, it was guidelines that Israel followed and Palestine didnt. What exactly should Israel offer for peace that it hasn't? Do you even know what Ahud Barak offered in 2000 that arafat turned down? Even King Abdullah told arafat that he was being unreasonable.
And last, maybe i misunderstood but Peres is alive and well. He was on the news last night and is currently the deputy PM and head of the labor party.</p>
<p>Now Im really getting ****ed. This stuff is really out there. </p>
<p>"Northrams, if to say about real jewish land, it's Abissinia (Ephiopia), Egyptians caught them there several thousand years BC, then as the legend tells, Moisey led 'en to Palestine, and there had already been Palestinians' ancestors. But it's according to legend.</p>
<p>btw, there is nor was any requirement for the palestinians to leave, and in fact they lived in relative peace with their jewish neighbors untill arafat and the fatah people came back from libya in the 80s
And what about Israeli-Arabian wars in 1960s?"</p>
<p>First that "legend" is the basis of Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam. Second, that's not even how it goes. The twelve brothers (tribes of Israel) lived in Caanan (Israel) and were enslaved in Egypt when they lived there during the great famine. THey were saved and were lead to the promised land. Since then there has ALWAYS been a jewish presence in Israel. Even the staunchest palestinians agree on that. Palestinians today are not the same people from the bible, they are from the arabian penninsula. You're thinking of Philistines but even then they only held the Gaza strip (Gaza, Ashdod, Gezer, Ashkelon). THey, as the story goes were exiled to europe by the romans. Go find a caaninite and im sure the Israeli authorities will give him a penthouse in Tel Aviv.</p>
<p>THe Israeli-Arab wars were between Jordan-Syria-Egypt-Lebanan-Iraq. Not the palestinians since they were part of jordan back then. I think it isnt right to put Israeli-Arabs with Palestinians since there is a clear distinction.</p>