As a Carleton alum, I wish I did not go there

Colleges and Universities A-Z Carleton College
1

<p>I am here just to share some of my thoughts and experiences about the negative aspects of Carleton. You might find my opinions biased or too negative, but I do think that you need to know some of these facts in order to make an informed decision about your school. I went to Carleton for my undergrad and Stanford for my graduate school, so I will also share some of my thoughts about a small liberal arts college and a big university.</p>

<ol>
<li>Academics — too much spoon feeding. </li>
</ol>

<p>Carleton prides itself for its smaller class size, quality teaching, which are true. But it is NOT NECESSARILY GOOD. The professors (I can only say for the math and sciences) do care about teaching, but they do so much hand holding that you almost don't have much opportunity to explore and challenge yourself outside the curriculum. The students there have the illusion of learning so much mainly because of the spoon-feeding by the hard-working professors.</p>

<p>The exams are not hard in terms of the thinking required, they are hard in terms of how careful it requires you to be. I took some Stanford courses which have overlap materials from my Carleton’s course. The huge difference is that Stanford’s grading cares more about the depth of your thinking while Carleton’s exams focus so much on tiny trivial nuances that doesn’t really matter that much. </p>

<p>Even for a small school, the classes offered are very limited and mostly non-advanced. They are unwilling to put any practical courses (such as real applied mathematics, etc) because it violates the spirit of liberal arts education. As a result, you don't really learn much and you don't get much skills that helps you to get a job.</p>

<ol>
<li>Diversity — a superficial thing</li>
</ol>

<p>Let’s check some fact, Minnesota has 85% white population. Carleton has slightly more colored students, but the white people’s culture still DOMINATES. It is not a "melting pot", it is a "mixed salad”. You have to find your own support group that is big enough so that you don’t feel alone. The west coast schools have much more diverse and international student body than Carleton. </p>

<ol>
<li>Finding a job — “School is too cozy to leave, so let’s not worry about jobs, or get a Phd and have more school”</li>
</ol>

<p>Because of the tuition cost, most of the students consists of Caucasian students from rich family background. This is not very accommodating for students from different backgrounds, since most of the rich students there do not worry too about finding a job after graduation, the school does not allocate much resource to help students to find jobs. Quoting from one of the earlier alums from Carleton “50% of the people graduate and work in a coffee shop first”. </p>

<p>Carleton produces a lot of Phd candidates, almost a disproportionate amount, but it is not because all the people are passionate about academia, it is because some of them never get to see all the alternatives that I can see now in a big university. That’s the limitations of a small school. </p>

<p>There is rarely any on campus recruiting going on at Carleton. You have to dig into the Carleton alumni directory and network with people in order to get a descent job or internship. In contrast, in even less famous big schools, you usually get big companies coming down to your school to do the recruiting. </p>

<ol>
<li>School Administration — Worst nightmare</li>
</ol>

<p>This is my biggest complaint about the school. Even the benefits of wonderful professors and smart students won’t offset the disadvantages of the outdated and rigid system. Carleton students have a ridiculous amount of distribution requirement for students to fulfill, while student in Amherst enjoys the freedom to take whatever classes they want. (I guess Carleton have neither the confidence nor the trust to allow students to do that) Carleton student’s courses choices must be checked by their advisor before they can register for classes. </p>

<p>The class deans are just like robots executing century-old school regulations without much understanding to students’ specific situations. I personally have witnessed several people’s painful experiences of being dropped out of the school because they found it difficult to navigate through the system. If the school find you incapable, they quickly do their heartless hand-washing afterwards. </p>

<p>So here is my thoughts: Carleton is not for all, it is great for people within only a very narrow set of parameters. Those people will love the college and even send their entire family to the school. Some people will not like its environment after spending a year here or so. Many people will find its limitations to be frustrating only after they graduate from it. </p>

<p>Another fact: 60% of the Carls marry each other, the school thinks it is something worth touting. I doubt it? That says something about this school too.</p>

2

<p>Wow. I hope an alum with a more positive perspective will weigh in soon. I am a parent of a current student, so I am not in an ideal position to counter your post. I will say that DS, a junior, has been mostly satisfied with his experience so far. </p>

<p>I do believe that he is getting a practical education. He’s majoring in computer science. When he entered the school, he really had no idea what he wanted to major in, and wasn’t even considering computer science. Carleton’s diversity of course offerings allowed him to sample many options, and to finally decide that CS was a great fit. He was able to get an excellent, competitive, out-of-state paid internship in the summer after his sophomore year during which he gained a great deal of hands-on research and programming experience.</p>

<p>No college or university is “for everyone”. But Carleton has a higher retention rate than most colleges & universities so they must be doing something right.</p>

3

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<p>Hate to break it to you but the “white people’s culture” still dominates most colleges and universities in the U.S. And within that group, those who have money have more influence than those who don’t. This is not a situation that is unique to Carleton.</p>

4

<p>This is such an odd post by a first-timer that part of me thinks this is a ■■■■■. </p>

<p>I mean, the freshman retention rate is north of 97% so I’m not sure how many people are, in fact, “dropped out.” And my ds, who is a minority, just hasn’t had any problems on a campus that is 67% Anglo. He’s also gotten quite generous FA, so we know not everyone at Carleton is white and rich. And if your Carleton undergrad degree got you into Stanford for grad school, it can’t be all bad, right?</p>

<p>Anyway, I also hope another alum will weigh in. I do agree that if you’re looking for pre-professional training than a LAC – any LAC – may not be for you.</p>

5

<p>OP Welcome to the CC world where many relish the chance to pounce. Generally, it is not a warm and fuzzy place. But then again maybe that’s what your looking for.</p>

6

<p>I am not trying to denigrate Carleton here. I am here just to provide something that helps you to get a balanced view of Carleton. When I went to Carleton, I was overwhelmed by the positive review from Carleton students, while there is absolute no negative voices. This is not representative of the real Carleton. Psychologically, people who have invested so much resource and energy on something have the tendency to value it more. (it’s just our behavioral bias). So most Carleton people love Carleton, but it doesn’t mean that you won’t love your alternative school even more. People who did not like Carleton will tend to stay quiet about it. and I am surprised that people are still looking for more sugar-coating here. </p>

<p>If you think I have ill intention, just think about it :Why would I have such a ill intention?</p>

7

<p>OP, I am curious. What college do you wish you had attended? You mention Amherst in your post, do you think it would have been a better environment for you? Is there someplace else specifically where you wish you had applied where you likely would have been accepted given your stats (or were accepted and now wish you had attended)? If/when you have children of your own, what specific schools would you have them visit and possibly apply to instead of Carleton?</p>

<p>It seems like an awful lot of your complaints could apply to any liberal arts college, and that other types of colleges have their own “issues” that could also have made your college experience less than ideal – things like large class sizes, many undergrad classes taught by TAs and/or adjuncts (some of them without a good grasp of English), difficulty in developing relationships with professors, etc. One of my kids was accepted to Carleton last year, but chose to attend elsewhere – but I don’t have any particular pro or anti Carleton bias. I also know a few Carleton grads through my workplace, but again… it doesn’t give me much of a bias either way. I am just trying to figure out what specific college you do wish you had attended instead and what specific lessons you will take from this for your own offspring’s eventual college search.</p>

8

<p>Carletonalum, are you an international student? How long ago did you graduate?</p>

9

<p>As a current Carleton student, I would like to respond in kind to these foolish accusations.
1.) Carleton professors are some of the most challenging, engaging and brilliant professors in the country, given that they are there to teach students first and foremost. They have challenged beyond what I thought possible, and they have never “spoon-fed” any of us material. We are expected to master material on our own.
2.) Diversity is more than this foolish poster could clearly see at Carleton. It goes much deeper than any visible identities, and there is an open discourse about the interaction among students with different identities, and I’d say it’s very healthy.
3.) Almost every single alum I know from the past few years has found a satisfactory job or gone to grad school knowing exactly what they had in mind. The Career Center and the alumni network are both wonderful resources.
4.) Carleton’s distribution requirements are extremely flexible, and really helpful for making sure that you explore. No one can save the world or make a billion dollars if they only learned something in one discipline. In addition, the president, vice president and the class deans are all deeply caring for students and incredibly nice.
You owe Carleton more than you know.</p>

10

<p>“Carleton prides itself for its smaller class size, quality teaching, which are true. But it is NOT NECESSARILY GOOD. The professors (I can only say for the math and sciences) do care about teaching, but they do so much hand holding that you almost don’t have much opportunity to explore and challenge yourself outside the curriculum. The students there have the illusion of learning so much mainly because of the spoon-feeding by the hard-working professors.”</p>

<p>“There is rarely any on campus recruiting going on at Carleton. You have to dig into the Carleton alumni directory and network with people in order to get a descent job or internship. In contrast, in even less famous big schools, you usually get big companies coming down to your school to do the recruiting.”</p>

<p>So you don’t want hand-holding in classes, but you do want it in finding jobs/internships? Also, there’s a lot of campus recruiting at Carleton. In my two years there, I’ve been to information meetings for a number of opportunities–Peace Corps, Breakthrough, and canvassing, just to name a few.</p>

<p>“Carleton students have a ridiculous amount of distribution requirement for students to fulfill, while student in Amherst enjoys the freedom to take whatever classes they want. (I guess Carleton have neither the confidence nor the trust to allow students to do that) Carleton student’s courses choices must be checked by their advisor before they can register for classes.”</p>

<p>I finished almost all of my distribution requirements by the end of freshmen year without even making a huge effort. And while not all students’ class choices are as diverse as mine were, I still don’t think I’d call the system ridiculous. By having distribution requirements instead of actual required classes/departments, Carleton’s requirements are actually a lot looser than many schools. For every requirement, there are classes in multiple departments that fulfill them. And I don’t think having a requirement to discuss your class choices with a smarter, more experienced professor before registration is too ridiculous of a rule either. If you’re perfect at choosing your own classes, your advisor’s not going to make you change your mind.</p>

11

<p>OP, my reaction is based on years of being on cc. Around this time, new posters come on and bash various selective schools or ask supposedly innocuous questions – “It it true that (pick a school) is (pick a negative adjective)?” I think it’s usually kids who are trying to depress interest in a school in which they’re interested. Obviously that’s only a theory; I have no way to prove it. But it happens every year.</p>

<p>Anyway, when you make your very first post on cc about your negative experience with your alma mater and decry things that you should have known going in, like the philosophy of a liberal arts education, I became suspicious. I do hope you’ll stick around and continue to provide your perspective. When people ask me for negatives about Carleton, I’m happy to give them, but, in ds’s case, the positives far outweigh the negatives.</p>

12

<p>First off, I suspect what Youdon’tsay says is correct. In case you actually are an alum who’s just ungrateful that Carleton got you into Stanford…</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Everyone else pretty much hit this one on the nail so I’ll skip over it.</p></li>
<li><p>Yeah, there are a lot of white people at Carleton and in Minnesota but I’m not quite sure what you mean by “white people’s culture” dominating. Do you mean that everyone’s becoming more American? Because that’s true…since we’re in America…and people are surrounded by American culture… However, I think most cultures are healthily represented at Carleton in the form of clubs (LASO, Asia Club, etc) and in the form of other student groups (Tamarind dance group, etc) and these groups integrate themselves with the rest of campus, teaming up for events (like cooking all together with Firebellies) and holding events open to everyone interested in going.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>You mentioned that the West Coast has more diversity than Minnesota does. Shocking. However, you should notice that a lot of the “diversity” the West Coast schools have is extremely “mixed salad”-esque (if we’re continuing your analogy). The white people hang out with white people in the West Coast and the Asians hang out with the Asians, etc. There is a lack of understanding of other cultures in these undergraduate schools and most people continue to live off of stereotypes there. You can ask me how I see this over PM.</p>

<p>Most Carleton students surround themselves with friends of different sexualities, ethnicities, political views, and the what-not. Diversity is actually more of an issue on the West Coast than elsewhere.</p>

<ol>
<li>“most of the students consists of Caucasian students from rich family background.” – Not true. Many of the Caucasian students are at Carleton on financial aid and can go to this school just because of what the school gives them.</li>
</ol>

<p>Many of the students at Carleton have an eye on their future pretty much 99% of the time, whether it be choosing practical majors or finding internships. No, we don’t offer an Accounting major…but how many LACs do?</p>

<p>I’m not sure what happened when you were here but the Career Center actively brings in grad schools and employers. It also now has a “30 Minutes” program where students can sign up to talk to people (usually alums) in various fields and thus network. Also, you should note that since we’re in Northfield and not in the Bay Area (hi there, Silicon Valley), no, Apple does not drive on over to Minnesota to recruit people.</p>

<p>Regarding the grad school acceptance rates: oh shoot, we’re well-known and well-liked by grad schools. Bring the rates down, everyone! Don’t increase your salary potential!</p>

<p>But seriously. Considering how the economy is these days, mostly everyone wants to secure a comfortable income. Thus Ph.D. Thus grad school. It’s actually the exact opposite of what your theory is – we see that reality is harsh and we want to prevent ourselves from getting into a bad spot, so we end up going to grad school.</p>

<ol>
<li>Carleton’s distribution requirements are pretty minimal and allow room for students to explore WHILE getting their major done in time without having to take an extra year. Have you checked the graduation rates of the UCs, OP? You should. That being said, I think most students at Carleton are flexible enough to take courses they’re interested in to fulfill their requirements (and I’m not sure how this requirement is “rigid” if students are willing to take those classes). If students aren’t confident in their abilities to take other courses outside of their fortes, there’s always the S/CR/NC option. In total, students usually need to take about five to nine classes to fulfill their GEs and most of them (like me) fulfill them accidentally.</li>
</ol>

<p>“it is great for people within only a very narrow set of parameters.” – I don’t know about this. Most of my friends in those West Coast schools with so much diversity lament how their professors blow off their questions. They also lament how their four-year schedules are so rigid and they are stuck with a given plan of classes since they need a LOT of classes to even finish their GE and a LOT to finish their major. (See [General</a> Education](<a href=“http://roosevelt.ucsd.edu/academics/gen-ed/frosh-ge.html]General”>http://roosevelt.ucsd.edu/academics/gen-ed/frosh-ge.html) for UCSD’s GE requirements. Yes, they have to take five quarters of a writing sequence. Play with <a href=“https://aventeur.ucsd.edu/public/student_four_year_plans/?currentCollege=FI[/url]”>https://aventeur.ucsd.edu/public/student_four_year_plans/?currentCollege=FI&lt;/a&gt; to see how everything is much more rigid for them than for Carleton students)</p>

<p>60% of Carls marrying each other? This is a myth. You can call up Admissions to confirm this.</p>

13

<p>OP,
(the numbers in my post do not correspond with OP’s numbering. They are my own points.)

  1. you complain that Carleton is a liberal arts school offering a broad range of classes in traditional subjects and tends to be more theoretical than applied. That’s what a liberal arts education is. It’s not vocational training, it’s not a technical academy and it’s not pre-professional. Your complaint is that Carleton is exactly what is and what it represents itself to be, but you don’t like that. Do you think that maybe YOU should have done YOUR research and figured this out before you enrolled? If you want a Cadillac don’t buy a Prius and complain that it’s not a Cadillac.
  2. You complain that Carleton has distribution requirements. Did you not know this before enrolling? Chicago has a rigorous core curriculum, Brown has none. Carleton has core requirements, Amherst has an open curriculum. This is what these schools offer and they tell you this in every way and place possible when you are researching the school. You bought a golden retriever and are criticizing it for not being a Chihuahua. Again, do you really think this is Carleton’s problem, not yours???
  3. You are comparing undergraduate math classes at a small liberal arts college with graduate level math classes at a very large research university. This comparison is not only specious and contrived it’s just plain dumb.
  4. Your post has definitely raised some major concerns for me about Carleton. I don’t have a student there but I have a D (URM) who visited for 3 days and liked it very much: the campus, the kids, the classes, the professors, the culture, pretty much everything except the weather and food :relaxed: was outstanding. In fact the kindness, warmth and generosity of all the students on the floor where she stayed was so notable to her that she put together a ‘thank you’ care package to send to the entire floor of her host’s dorm. Her observation was that the Carleton students of all colors were warm, inclusive, smart, funny and mingled. Like all its brethren Carleton probably still has a ways to go as it works to create a genuinely diverse student body, however, programs like the one my D attended are surely evidence of the school’s movement toward that end.
    But, again, your post has caused me to seriously question whether a Carleton education would be right for my D. Your inability to write even one sentence in English without major grammar errors is bizarre for a graduate of a selective LAC. I reread your post to check my observation and stopped counting rudimentary grammar and syntactical errors after the first paragraph, as they were so numerous. </p>

<p>I truly hope that you are a ■■■■■, because your incapacity to communicate simple ideas in correct English - with even basic verb/noun agreement - would be pretty stunning for someone with a Carleton education, especially with those pesky distribution requirements.</p>

14

<p>I’m an alum too. Negative comments about Carleton should be welcome. On some level there is some truth to what the OP is saying, but I don’t agree with much of it. I have no regrets going to Carleton; however, I’d still like to see things improved. As for the points mentioned.</p>

<p>I’m glad this person posted. Discussion is good.</p>

<ol>
<li>Spoonfeeding… there is some truth to this…I wouldn’t quite call it spoonfeeding For certain students, the profs coddle the students too much. In my particular major, some of the students that got into top 5 or 10 grad schools didn’t succeed or dropped out. I was just stunned to see some students with a gpa over 3.8 drop out of MIT or Cornell or struggle after a long period of adjustment (and then eventually really succeed). Other students in my major were extremely successful from the start. There is the Dilbert cartoon about Wally needing constant supervision:</li>
</ol>

<p>[Dilbert</a> comic strip for 09/21/2007 from the official Dilbert comic strips archive.](<a href=“scottadams | Twitter | Linktree”>scottadams | Twitter | Linktree)</p>

<p>Sometimes students thrive at Carleton like Wally. They have trouble when they leave. </p>

<p>On the positive side, some students may be smart, but just may need more time to grow, and that would be more difficult in a bigger national school. Carleton may be better suited for this type of student. I was much like this type of student when I entered Carleton.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Diversity? A mixed salad is not too bad for being in Minnesota…If you wanted better diversity, go to undergrad in some school in California. Nobody should have to tell you this.</p></li>
<li><p>Carleton could improve on jobs. A bigger national school will do a better job than any Liberal Arts School. If you want a great job after a four year degree, and this is your primary goal, a liberal arts school may not be the best choice.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I’m not saying Carleton couldn’t do a better job…they could and they should.</p>

<ol>
<li>I don’t understand the administration issues the OP has had. Specifics would be helpful.</li>
</ol>

<p>As for the pre-reqs limiting class choice. I disagree completely. Go to a major national or public school, and you will not have 1/4 the flexibility you have at Carleton. </p>

<ol>
<li>Agree on the marriage thing. 60% of Carls marrying each other is strange…I wouldn’t necessarily brag…</li>
</ol>

15

<p>The marriage claim is off by 46%. For a math major, OP is as sloppy with numbers as he is with language.</p>

<p>“How many Carls end up married to other Carls? Carleton folklore says 30-40%, but the actual number is much lower (around 14%).” From the Carleton archives.</p>

<p>The college whose grads most often marry each other is Middlebury. The Midd marriage average is about 17%.</p>

16

<p>I will make some comments here:

  1. Yes, some problems maybe universal to all liberal arts colleges, but it doesn’t mean they are not a problems and I can’t point them out. People still have a choice between big U and LAC. Personally i find big U’s use of technology and TA resources to be more effective. (e.g. Classes will be recorded and you can watch it anytime you want). You can disagree, and I respect that.
  2. In terms of distribution requirement, I think Amherst’s approach is far more superior. I had done my research before I went to Carleton. I am just forwarding my complaints from the new Carls who have to fulfill much more complicated distribution requirement than mine.
  3. I am grateful to the all the professors that taught me and their teaching is second to none. In this sense, I owe Carleton, but it doesn’t forbid me to give criticisms to the school system, which is my main complaint. I know people can get emotional when their alma mater is criticized. But emotions do not help people to make better decisions, reasonings do. I welcome you all give some constructive criticisms instead of calling me a ■■■■■.
  4. If you are still judging a person by the number of grammar mistakes he makes on a forum post, you will probably find 1/4 of people in Silicon valley are idiots. The world is changing and you can no longer excel by memorizing Shakespeare.</p>
17

<p>OP,
No one has said you don’t have the right to post your feelings. Of course you do, and you have. The responses you received were pretty much point-for-point disagreements with the content of your stated criticisms. And substantial misrepresentation of numbers and facts might not be considered ‘reasonable’. </p>

<p>The heart of the problem is that what you consider to be ‘problems’ are simply features of a Carleton education, and most of them are endemic to a liberal arts education everywhere. They are not going to go away because you don’t like them. The "problem’ is not with Carleton. The problem is that you chose the wrong school for yourself. This is not a problem that can be laid at Carleton’s doorstep.</p>

<p>“■■■■■” is not name calling. It is a term that refers to a particular kind of behavior, e.g. creating an account on CC called “carletonalum” for the sole purpose of publicly bashing your alma mater, Carleton.</p>

18

<p>The sole purpose of my post is to prevent people who are not suitable for Carleton to go there and have a bad experience. Yes, I did not make a good decision when I decided to go to Carleton. That was my fault and I don’t want people to make the same mistake again. I do know several people like me. They are just not active on this forum at all. If all of us see these limitations of a liberal arts college, we would choose otherwise. </p>

<p>Most of the facts that I stated (except the marriage rate, which I heard from someone who works at the alumni office) are descriptive rather than quantitative. It might be misrepresentative to some but realistic to others, but they are my true feelings. (as my disclaimer stated at the beginning.)</p>

19

<p>It’s still strange how you, “carletonalum,” have decided to create an account and bash Carleton College conveniently (“coincidentally”) five days before the ED1 deadline. The only posts you have ever made on this site have been posts about Carleton. You may not think that this is a big deal, but having some random “alum” tell prospective students that Carleton’s not great and is fit only for certain (and you implied very strange and weird) people makes people think twice about EDing to a college.</p>

<p>And that’s why we believe you’re a ■■■■■.</p>

<p>To any prospective students out there, ED1 if you originally wanted to ED1 mostly because many of “carletonalum”'s facts were off anyway (the marriage rate is false. Call up Admissions, not “someone who works at the alumni office”).</p>

<p>To carletonalum’s new points in case he actually is an alum:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Yes, shockingly, there is a big difference between going to a school of 30,000 students and going to Carleton. Some people might like going to classes with 800 other people and never talking to their professors. They might like never actually going to class and just watching videos to catch up. Personally, I love being in class, interacting with other students, and talking to the professors who are super passionate about something I’m interested in. That’s a personal preference and an awareness of differences that we generally trust prospective students to know.</p></li>
<li><p>Actually, the “new Carls” (2015 and beyond) have it easier than you guys did. The new distribution requirements allow students to take fewer classes to fulfill their GEs and still explore many things offered at Carleton.</p></li>
<li><p>You can certainly criticize Carleton if you want, but as noted before, there are obvious, legitimate reasons for why you seem like a ■■■■■ (mostly the timeliness of your airing of grievances). No, we’re not letting our emotions get in the way here – we’re being reasonable by actually stating FACTS about our school. You, on the other hand, have no idea how much better the new distribution requirements are, do not understand that diversity is well and improving, and still insist upon the 60% statistic (again, call up Admissions).</p></li>
</ol>

20

<p>Reply to the hangingtree:

  1. In big universities professors do have office hours too and there are a lot more TA offices hours. You do get to interact with other people a lot. The videos classes are just extra bonuses.
    2.3. I am not insisting anything except my own feelings and some of the things that lower class men told me. Other people who are better informed can refute my views and that just makes this thread more informative. That’s what I want to see. </p>

<p>p.s I forgot about the ED deadline until your last post.</p>