<p>“I do remember when my older daughter was making her Science Research presentation a friend asked me if I thought the reason she got into Yale was because of this class.”</p>
<p>Yale for the last 3-4 years has been trying to attract science oriented students. They have been admitting anyone who has won some national level prize in science or math, especially women.</p>
<p>Many families are letting the college application process become the be-and and end-all of the high school years. They do not live in the present. That’s the problem.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with prudent academic planning and foresight, but you cannot expect your kids to do absolutely everything in accordance with its impression on a college application. </p>
<p>And say the kid does get the much-coveted slot in the freshman class of prestigious college X. What does that guarantee? Outside of school, life is messy. There are no clear pathways. Students who have been trained since middle school to do everything to please authority figures and professional judgment-givers are going to have a hard time with real life, where paths are not clear-cut at all, and you don’t know whether you’ve made the right decision until 20 years after you make it.</p>
<p>Kids participate in the admissions arms race because that’s what the colleges reward. It’s a fact of human nature that you will always get the type of behavior that you reward. </p>
<p>Top colleges may SAY they want poets, diverse learners, and kids who march to different drummers. And to some extent they really do. But then they turn around and admit mostly kids with 4.5+ GPA, 2250+ SAT, 10+ APs, and lots of EC achievements. You can see it every year on the HYPSM accepted/rejected threads right here on CC.</p>
<p>Kids look around their high school and see the kids who got into Stanford last year were the same kids who were in all the AP classes and EC leadership positions. If they want to go to Stanford too they feel compelled to jump onto the admissions hamster wheel and start running as fast as they can.</p>
<p>I think the OP makes a very valid point. I was fortunate to see first hand my two nieces journey to get accepted into college before my son even had to think about it. There is something horribly wrong when you have to send your kids off to college already on Zoloft for anxiety. Consequently, we encouraged our son to take a different track - we didn’t push him to take the most rigorous classes (didn’t take a single AP) or tell him to join a club or volunteer in an organization which helps the needy and downtrodden. We didn’t even know leadership positions were something seemingly prized by college adcoms (he didn’t have any of those either.) Our only “requirement” was that he work hard and do his best, and that didn’t mean getting straight A’s. We let his guidance counselor guide him and let him decide for himself what EC’s he wanted to be involved with. We were often quite surprised when he would come home and tell us he wanted to do something. I’m pretty sure they were things he was genuinely interested in since he has continued them in college. I think it showed through to colleges that he wasn’t padding his resume and was a big reason why he was accepted at every college where he applied. </p>
<p>I see no point in pushing high school students to take the most rigorous classes available and be involved in EC’s simply for how they will look to colleges only, to end up as basket cases and nervous wrecks. I think it is a shame that kids feel forced into a rat race at such a young age. It’s bad enough most adults have to deal with that. And I do blame the parents for a big part of this. How many threads are started by parents asking how it will affect their kids chances if they don’t take AP Calc in their freshman year or start visiting colleges in 8th grade (yes, I am exaggerating but not by much.)</p>
<p>^^Even the worst tigermother-type parents (and I don’t mean that in any sort of racial sense) wouldn’t demand that of their kids if it didn’t work. </p>
<p>Whatever type of qualifications, behavior, and achievements the top schools reward with letters of admission will be the type of qualifications, behavior, and achievements the students who aspire to top schools will produce.</p>
<p>It is not the kids or their demanding parents who decide who gets in. It’s the colleges.</p>
<p>texaspg -you’re missing two important points - one was that my daughter took that class because she was interested in it not because she thought it would help her get into college. She won no local, regional, or national awards in Science, this is our very small high school presentation. Also, her topic was very soft science - comedy and laughter and why it works or something like that (it’s been a few years). Secondly, she was applying as a Theatre/Voice major and turned Yale down (and Dartmouth) for Northwestern which fit her goals much better. She’s a junior and never looked back.</p>
<p>What your kid takes in high school should be a reflection of who he/she is and interests him/her. My younger daughter skipped AP English for a Shakespeare English elective and a writing English elective and it shows much more of who she is for colleges to see. She doesn’t want a college that puts a higher priority on AP numbers than on knowledge and one that knows the two are not synonymous.</p>
<p>Amtc, I agree whole-heartedly with your points in post #28. We wanted our kids to take challenging courses but also what interested them. They passed on a couple of APs for that reason. But don’t for one second delude yourself that schools like Scarsdale dumped APs solely because of limitations to learning. They did it because they have the money to design their own courses and are still feeders to get their kids into HYPS, etc. If they were an average or unconnected suburban school in which the removal of APs would hurt Ivy placement I am certain they would still have APs.</p>
<p>Since when is it necessary for a high school kid to complete their first year in college while in HS? To be honest, I would rather have my kid take one of the old fashioned courses like shop and home ec (they no longer exist) so that they know how to cook a basic meal, hem a pair of pants, balance a check book, or wield a screwdriver and hammer. I realize I am in the minority but many college age kids are really academically smart but lack basic life skills.</p>
<p>We too have asked our kids to only take APs in areas that interest them. D1 took only two during senior year and was accepted into programs that have a 7% acceptance rate. Because her AP subjects are now part of her core requirements, she needs to retake the classes in college at the 101 level. </p>
<p>We are giving the same advice to D2…challenge yourself but don’t make yourself crazy. There is more to life than mastering APUSH, or AP Calc by age 16. </p>
<p>I too think the college application process is way out of control.</p>
<p>I know that this isn’t the point of the thread, but if you have a kid who really loves a subject, and, for whatever reason, can’t take the AP class, the student should self-study and take the exam, just to show mastery. You don’t actually need to take the class to take the exam, you just have to pay your $80.</p>
<p>amtc - I don’t agree with the proposition that your kid got into Yale and Dartmouth because she only took classes she liked in school. That proposition is highly misleading. </p>
<p>It does not say anything about her grades, rank in school, standardized test scores, LORs, essays etc. So how do those measure up? I can’t imagine Yale admitting someone with 1900, 3.5 GPA, second quartile student because that kid followed her passion?</p>
<p>In most schools, AP/IB classes are weighted and it impacts your GPA and class rank tremendously. No one in college admission process cares if you never took an advanced level science class or literature class but based on your class rank and GPA, they can easily figure out if you are at the top or bottom of class. </p>
<p>I know if my kid did not take ANY PreAP/AP/preIB/IB classes, the perfect GPA is 4.00, weighted or unweighted. That GPA places a student in that school at 30th percentile. It won’t get them even into a State school in Texas where top 10% automatically get admitted.</p>
<p>IMO, pursuit in hs for “college’s sake” alone is unhealthy, but it’s not that black and white. Encouraging your D/S to step up academically, or becoming a EC leader, or pursuing certain interests is valuable for their development and shaping their character. Believe me, I know there is stress on teens too, but having my D/S engaged and pursuing interests (and taking hard classes) have made the hs years have some “meaning” for my D/Ss, rather than just being a grind.</p>
<p>“But don’t for one second delude yourself that schools like Scarsdale dumped APs solely because of limitations to learning. They did it because they have the money to design their own courses and are still feeders to get their kids into HYPS, etc. If they were an average or unconnected suburban school in which the removal of APs would hurt Ivy placement I am certain they would still have APs.”</p>
<p>My two nieces who went off to college already on zoloft were products of the Scarsdale schools system. The whole place is toxic, imo. I can’t begin to tell anyone who many people I know there who told their kids they were going to HYPSM when they were in elementary school, no ifs, ands, or buts!</p>
<p>My sister would react with dead silence when I would call and tell her his latest acceptance until the last one came in and it was a top 25 LAC. She actually said to me how could I expect her be happy for my son when I told her his other acceptances! </p>
<p>I don’t know if anything has changed since her last child (a step) graduated in 2009 but APs at Scarsdale were never weighted and the school doesn’t rank.</p>
<p>David - My D did what she pleased in high school, much of which I didn’t totally approve of. She took some tough classes, but no bells and whistles and no obsessing over resume items. We both knew that top colleges would likely not be an option. She’s going to a decent, but not elite, university and is doing great. My point is that its your decision whether to play the elite college game. You don’t have to, and there is certainly life after high school if you don’t. Although I had some angst about it when D was in high school, in retrospect I wouldn’t want her to do it any other way.</p>
<p>My S steadfastly resisted all the EC’s I thought he “should” do to demonstrate his interests (literary club editor, Model UN, newspaper, etc.) and indeed marched to his own drummer. Worked out well for him.</p>
<p>This is sort of a first-world problem, though – what % of high schools in this country are (or what % of high school seniors are enrolled in) the kinds of schools where the norm is race-to-the-Ivies? I would hazard a guess that overall, it’s very low (and, very privileged).</p>
<p>I think you are entitled to vent. I also think you are applying to way too many schools. I think you put yourself on the hamster wheel. The number of college bound students per capita who are consumed to the point of disgust and cynicism at the end of their high school years are few and far between. Many high school kids manage to do what they want to do in high school, yes even the top achievers, apply to a handful of schools and never look back whether or not they “enjoyed” high school. Marching to one’s own drummer is what makes people interesting so march on and you can certainly vent here.</p>
<p>I agree with momofthreeboys, you are applying to way too many schools which is part of why you feel the way you do. Our school suggested kids only apply to 5-7. That is about what my son is doing and it is so much less stressful.</p>
<p>The OP has it right in that the it is really up to an individual to decide what is right for them because the pressure to perform or behave as others think you should starts pretty early in life. Only by the time you are getting ready for college, you should be deciding which of those pressures you are going to ignore or listen to and be satisfied you are making the right choices for you. </p>
<p>Well thought out choices and decisions but ones that you can live with and not regret. Welcome to adulthood.</p>
<p>david, I agree with many of your points. There was a mom on here a few weeks ago convinced her son’s college applications were already ruined because he was not placed in the highest math section this fall. He’s in 6th grade.</p>
<p>I think you are applying to way too many schools though, and your stress level could be reduced by pruning that list. You have interesting things to say and will have a lot of good late-night bull sessions with your soon-to-be college friends.</p>
<p>I think when some students apply to a lot of schools- it may be because they have a lot of schools that are almost reaches combined with needed merit/financial aid.</p>
<p>I know one student who applied to 17 schools, don’t know how many he was admitted to but he was a strong student who didn’t have need. He attended a very good school that had a good merit aid package.</p>
<p>Make sure you have your own strong criteria for determining how good of a fit a school is for you. You may have a large list of acceptances to choose from and not have time to revisit them all.
Keep in mind that schools may know , what other schools you are applying to.
Having a large list, makes it more difficult to convince a school that they are your top choice.</p>
<p>My oldest had just 5 schools on her list, one private, one OOS & three instate publics. The private school was a reach, academically & financially, however possibly because it was her only reach, she was able to make the case that it was her first choice & the results were that she was accepted, with enough financial aid to make it possible for her to attend.</p>
<p>I would agree that 5 schools is a small number, I think eight is probably more reasonable, she could have easily added several reach schools, but then again, that might have made it more difficult to get into any of them.</p>