Asian Americans at a Disadvantage

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<p>You can argue that Duke is an outlier among elites. If you can show me that its peer schools are more socioeconomically diverse, I’ll accept that. But absent that, you cannot simply discard evidence that refutes your claim.</p>

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<p>Be careful with your statistics. There are more whites than blacks. If you try to implement preference based on income (i.e. fix an income level), you’ll end up with mostly low-income whites simply because there are more low-income whites than low-income blacks. This is why preferences based on income don’t “work.”</p>

<p>It’s a [long</a> discussion](<a href=“http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action]long”>http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action), but if you watch the relevant parts, you’ll see that everyone on stage–Dalton Conley, John McWhorter, Julian Bond, and Lee Bollinger–recognizes that income-based preferences don’t “work.” Bond and Bollinger, however, appear not to understand that Conley was advocating preferences based on WEALTH. At any given income, black families have lower wealth than white families ([Source](<a href=“http://nypolisci.org/files/poli15/Readings/Black%20White%20Wealth%20Gap.pdf]Source[/url]”>http://nypolisci.org/files/poli15/Readings/Black%20White%20Wealth%20Gap.pdf)</a>). Set the bar based on wealth, and yes, you will get mostly poor blacks.</p>

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<p>Go back and take a look at the average family incomes by racial classification at Duke in 2001-2002. All were at least twice the national average. If you want to argue that Harvard’s more socioeconomically diverse than Duke, show me the numbers. Otherwise, I’m inclined to believe that Duke isn’t any better (or worse) than its peers in this regard.</p>

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<p>And how meaningful are these interactions? Is it as simple as passing by each other on the way to class, the cafeteria, the gym, and so forth? Does it extend to chatting with each other while picking clothes up from the laundry room? Or is it so profound that lifelong friendships are formed?</p>

<p>There is evidence that “diversity” has contributed little, if anything. According to Bowen and Bok, 56% of white students in the institutions they studied knew two or more black classmates “well.” But 54% of Americans at large report having five or more black friends ([Source](<a href=“Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study - Thomas Sowell - Google Books”>Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study - Thomas Sowell - Google Books)</a>). It stands to reason that at least 54% of Americans at large have TWO or more black friends, so really, “diversity” has barely done anything with respect to “interaction.”</p>

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<p>Define “homogenous.”</p>

<p>Why don’t we just get rid of AA and focus on extenuating circumstances?
Instead of someone getting in because their income is lower or because they’re a URM, why not just relate it to extenuating circumstances? Income and race isn’t as influential as divorce, remarrying, deaths, or severe injuries. There are ways to cheat the system, and the Asians are screwed both ways.
My parents make about 500k each, about the same as most of the people on the block.
My Asian friend, with that income bracket, was in the starting stages of cancer during Frosh year. He nearly didn’t graduate the 9th grade. But he made a strong recovery, and wrote a gut wrenching story on his illness. He got into every school he applied to. That’s an extenuating circumstance. Overcoming obstacles due to wealth or race is the same as the above. They count too.
I just don’t see why we have to have socioeconomic AA over race AA. Deal with all of them, or don’t deal with them at all. Only socioeconomic would have basically the same effect as both of those. I would fullheartedly support that, except for the lone thought that this might accomplish diversity.
Using diversity only in terms of race or wealth shows how far this country has come: like a sleeping snail. Diversity should be of culture (not necessarily racial), experiences, and personalities. That’s what colleges should look for.</p>

<p>"AA is such a sacred cow that no one can admit there are any drawbacks to it, no element of individual unfairness. I find this pretty amazing. "</p>

<p>“And nobody talks about it, though the discriminatory mechanisms are only slightly more subtle.” </p>

<p>Nobody talks about it? Really?</p>

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<p>If you’re saying that the evaluation should be strictly at an individual level, I’m all for that.</p>

<p>Individuals contribute to diversity, not groups.</p>

<p>^That’s exactly what I’m saying.</p>

<p>kind of off on another tangent but what I think the universities are saying is that they don’t embrace the Asian culture. I am not racist and I do not mean to offend, I would just like to open up another avenue of discussion (discussion-not mud-slinging!). What I mean is that so many “Americans” of all races are flocking to see the movie “A race to no where” and are complaining about their kids busy schedules. My HS schedule was a bit overwhelming and most of my friends are now exhausted and we haven’t gone to college yet.</p>

<p>Maybe the universities are simply putting their foot down on all this craziness and saying certain “numbers” are good enough! Now you must qualify in others ways. If the students were only interested in their “scores” they would tend to be lacking in the other things the colleges want. </p>

<p>Also, looking at CC posts about individual college admission data isn’t a good place to get your statistics. Obviously you only have people that volunteer their information and I also think a lot of people exaggerate. I am certain there are Asian males that got accepted to HYPMS with SAT’s under 2200–but their culture shames them for not being higher so they don’t post.</p>

<p>^Plenty of Asian males have posted those stats.
A rejection of Asian culture? Please.
Their “culture” does believe in hard work, not pure perfection. Some Asian parents are laid back. This is generic and stereotypical, your statement.
And if colleges really wanted to “reject Asian culture” no “perfect asians” would be admitted. That’s not the case.</p>

<p>probably saying the obvious and digressing from your debates a bit. This race-based AA in admission is really a practice of racial discrimination against asian americans. Asian American applicants do feel victim to this discrimination. The closest example is the ‘Jewish quota’ in the college or medical school admission process.
[Discrmination</a> & Quotas Commentary Magazine](<a href=“http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/discrmination-quotas/]Discrmination”>http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/discrmination-quotas/)
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/26/health/26quot.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/26/health/26quot.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808007/pdf/bullnyacadmed00005-0055.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808007/pdf/bullnyacadmed00005-0055.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
The Jewish quota did not benefit any other particular race, but the rest of the applicant pool (which was mainly white) where as the discrimination against asians seems to benefit other minorities (hispanics and blacks) – and they are speaking in support of this policy. Being the major beneficiaries of such an unfair policy against asians your reasons are tainted … admit it ‘soydecali’, ‘saynotoharvard’, …</p>

<p>In terms of the proper terminology to use : Discrimination vs. Affirmative Action.
What the asians are really experiencing here is a DISCRIMINATION … which process hurts them and hurts them in a very substantive way because of their association with a certain race. The afirmative action, however, is to bring positive benefits to the disadvantaged people that are associated with a certain race, gender, income level, and so on. Is it not? any civil rights lawyer here?</p>

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<p>I asked for a discussion, not a snotty comment. I didn’t state what I meant quite right. I didn’t mean asian culture in general, I only meant as it applies to education. I don’t think it is a stereotype but reality.</p>

<p>So the only thing helpful you had to add was that the culture believes in hard work (and so do a lot of other cultures). I do think the asian culture expects children to be pretty close to perfect when it comes to academics. Yes, I agree this does not include all asians, but I think it includes the ones that post on CC.</p>

<p>Are all the Asians on this thread willing to say that is not a cultural expectation?</p>

<p>I am partially asian, and will be marking “Asian” under the race category, as “Hispanic” is not a race under current standards. While I am almost completely Hispanic in ethnicity/culture, I associate with the Asian race. So benefitting from the policy is not my concern. I don’t even think I’ll be included in the minority statistic because I’ll have checked the Hispanic box and the Asian box. </p>

<p>Anyway, that’s besides the point because I have several Ivy League and non-Ivy League asian friends who support race-based AA. Only those who feel inadequate about their potential to get into an elite school, especially those competing against others of Asian race, seek to target beneficiaries of AA as an explanation of their own “failure.”</p>

<h1>This article posted below has a remarkable resemblance to the discussions presented by non-asian posters here speaking for the asian discrimination and against abolishing the so-called affirmative action in admission (which in fact is a discrimination against asians). Just substitute the words “Jewish” by “Asian”, “medical schools” and “hospitals” by “college”, “religious -affiliation” by “ethnic-affiliation”, and “anti-semitic” by “anti-asian”, and first few paragraphs of the following article read quite well. </h1>

<p>[NY</a> Times Advertisement](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/26/health/26quot.html]NY”>When Jewish Doctors Faced Quotas, a Pose in Defiance - The New York Times)</p>

<p>"In a Time of Quotas, a Quiet Pose in Defiance
By BARRON H. LERNER
Published: May 25, 2009 </p>

<p>As a Jewish physician practicing medicine in 2009, I hardly ever pay attention to my religious affiliation. </p>

<p>But in the years before World War II, at my institution and at other medical schools, Judaism was very much on people’s minds. Informal quotas limited the numbers of Jewish medical students and physicians.</p>

<p>Within hospital walls, some non-Jewish physicians supported the quotas and others opposed them. An untold story from Columbia’s Neurological Institute demonstrates an ingenious attempt by one physician to thwart what he believed was an unjust policy. </p>

<p>A central reason that colleges and medical schools established quotas in the early 20th century was the immigration of millions of Eastern European Jews to New York and other cities. When children from these families pursued higher education, the percentage of Jewish applicants increased. </p>

<p>This competition from Jewish students promoted the emergence of traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes, Edward C. Halperin wrote in 2001 in The Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences. Educators limited the number of Jews based on beliefs that they were too bookish, aggressive and greedy. Religious affiliation was deduced by studying students’ names, interviewing them and asking them directly on medical school applications. </p>

<p>“We limit the number of Jews admitted to each class to roughly the proportion of Jews in the population of the state,” the dean of Cornell University Medical College said in 1940, according to the journal article. At Yale Medical School, applications of Jewish students were marked with an “H” for “Hebrew.” </p>

<p>As a result, the number of Jewish students dropped. At the Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons, for example, the percentage of Jewish students fell to 6 percent from 47 percent between 1920 and 1940.</p>

<p>It is harder to document the exclusion of Jewish physicians, but this was occurring too. In “Time to Heal,” the medical historian Kenneth M. Ludmerer writes that quotas were even stricter for senior physician positions at university-affiliated hospitals. </p>

<p>Because hospitals put quotas into effect tacitly and rarely documented them, little has been written about how non-Jewish physicians responded to them. But in a new book, “The Legacy of Tracy J. Putnam and H. Houston Merritt,” Lewis P. Rowland, an emeritus professor of neurology at Columbia, provides insights into how such quotas worked in practice. </p>

<p>The quota system eventually began to break down, and Dr. Rowland suggests that one reason was the influx of refugee European Jewish physicians fleeing the Nazis in the late 1930s. At Columbia, the department of neurology had quietly hired several of these doctors, many of whom were quite eminent. </p>

<p>One, for example, was Otto Marburg, a Viennese neurologist who emigrated from Austria in 1938 with his friend Sigmund Freud. </p>

<p>But how could the presence of these physicians be squared with the informal policies discouraging the hiring of Jews? At Columbia’s Neurological Institute in the 1940s, Dr. Rowland writes, a curious solution emerged: the neurology service was divided in two. The East service contained no Jewish physicians while the West service contained 5 to 10 European Jews.</p>

<p>The mastermind behind this compromise was Dr. Putnam, a neurologist, neurosurgeon and psychiatrist who was named head of the Neurological Institute in 1939. A Boston Brahmin, Dr. Putnam was the vice chairman of the National Committee for Resettlement of Foreign Physicians. “It seems likely,” Dr. Rowland concludes, “that all of these European neurologists were appointed by Putnam.”</p>

<p>Dr. Putnam was forced to resign in 1947, ending his career at Columbia. Colleagues at the time suspected several reasons, including a lack of administrative skills, enemies on the staff and the conflicts that arose from having a neurosurgeon running a neurological institute. </p>

<p>But Dr. Rowland unearthed another explanation. A New York newspaper of the era, called PM, reported in 1947 that Dr. Putnam had been told to fire all of the “non-Aryan” neurologists, something he was unwilling to do.</p>

<p>Dr. Rowland corroborated this story when he discovered a 1961 letter written by Dr. Putnam to a fellow physician. Dr. Putnam reported that Charles Cooper, then head of Columbia’s affiliated hospital, Presbyterian, had told him in 1945 “that I should get rid of all the Jews in my department or resign.”</p>

<p>Although Dr. Putnam left, most of the Jewish neurologists stayed, under the leadership of Dr. Merritt. But Columbia did not have a Jewish physician as head of neurology until 1973, when Dr. Rowland was named to the position. He was only the third Jewish clinical chief at the institution.</p>

<p>Quotas for Jewish medical students and physicians disappeared fairly rapidly after World War II, partly in response to Nazi atrocities against the Jews. But Dr. Putnam’s quiet advocacy on behalf of Jewish physicians when such a stance was unpopular should not be forgotten.</p>

<p>Dr. Barron H. Lerner teaches medicine and public health at Columbia University Medical Center."</p>

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don’t be quick soydecali. I’ve seen all asian american students ranked in top five in a very competitive public high schools all rejected by all ivies, some of them played in the carnegie hall, intel finalist, etc. i have my children in ivy school and non-ivy top school. if you are a mixed hispanic asian, you should wish you are considered URM to have any hope to be accepted into any top college no matter how strong your academics are, how good leadership skills and extracurriculars are. Because if you application is placed under the pile of “A” (for asian), then simply you stand no chance.</p>

<p>I highly doubt that “I stand no chance.” Everyone stands a chance.</p>

<p>Also, I’m not sure how the commonapp works, but there’s a Hispanic section, and there’s a race section. Do you know which pile I’ll go into?</p>

<p>I was under the impression there were no piles…</p>

<p>Nobody is talking about it here too!</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1128337-candidate-has-better-stats-harvard.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1128337-candidate-has-better-stats-harvard.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>218 Posts not talking about it so far, and counting !</p>

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<p>If you are 25% Latino or more, then you can mark Latino. I don’t remember what the exact cut-off is, but I’m sure 25% is enough. The non-URM designations confer no benefit so you can mark those if you choose (assuming they are accurate.)
I am unsure on the exact definition of Latino, but I think it’s anything you might expect except for someone of Spanish origin (from Europe.) Also, being from a caucasian family whose family lived in Brazil doesn’t count either.</p>

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<p>While I admire you for your decision, if you’re not willing to check “Hispanic” (which I think you should, to be honest), then you might as well just not report your race. You honestly don’t want to be lumped into the Asian applicant group. I don’t mean to sound tactless, but if you just look at the numbers, Asian-Americans are not in a good place for top college admissions. Note that I’m not crying “racism!” or “discrimination!” It’s just the truth. College admissions being a zero-sum game, if one group is given preferential treatment, other groups will suffer, primarily lower-class whites and Asian-Americans. That’s just how it works.</p>

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<p>If you are 25% Latino or more, then you can mark Latino. I don’t remember what the exact cut-off is, but I’m sure 25% is enough. The non-URM designations confer no benefit so you can mark those if you choose (assuming they are accurate.)
I am unsure on the exact definition of Latino, but I think it’s anything you might expect except for someone of Spanish origin (from Europe.) Also, being from a caucasian family whose family lived in Brazil doesn’t count either.</p>

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I’ve seen this too.

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<p>But, I wouldn’t go that far.</p>

<p>Sometimes Asian academic superstars get snubbed for Asians who are very strong students but nothing spectacular. I knew a guy that was a true math/physics superstar (top 100 in the country in both) who also was one of the top 5-10 violinists in the state. He got shut out of the top schools, yet some other Asians with nothing spectacular got in. That’s why they say it’s a crapshoot.</p>

<p>"no matter how strong your academics are, how good leadership skills and extracurriculars are. Because if you application is placed under the pile of “A” (for asian), then simply you stand no chance. "</p>

<p>So you are saying that people who identify themselves as Asian have no chance of being admitted to an ivy? I don’t understand. I was under the impression that there were Asians enrolled at Ivy’s. </p>

<p>I’ll check. </p>

<p>BRB.</p>

<p>Thank you for your contributions. This thread is now closed.</p>