<p>BTW, my fellow volunteer at the John Kerry campaign said : Those republicans are such Nazi's. I heard that phrase at least 5 different times. </p>
<p>GO KERRY (Re-vote might happen in Ohio)! Asian Americans should get involved in the community more. Because in the end, I think that caucasian americans are just worried that Asian Americans as a group won't "care" about them as much as they "cared" for us.</p>
<p>your attack there really shows your ignorance. you judge people on their culture's divorce rate? are divorced couples the bane of our existence then?</p>
<p>it's bad parenting for all parents in general to push their kids too hard upon where it is called 'force'. you said yourself that thats what the majority of asian parents do, so yea, that's pretty bad parenting. it's pretty sickening for any parents to see their kids in such limited horizons, i.e. solely in the terms of grades and accomplishments. </p>
<p>and you're now likening another poster to white supremicists?
thats pathetic.</p>
<p>
[quote]
your attack there really shows your ignorance. you judge people on their culture's divorce rate? are divorced couples the bane of our existence then?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If Larry Bird gave me tips on 3 point shooting with a quick release, I would listen to him. If George Bush gave me tips on how to make friends in France before my trip to France (hypothetically) I wouldn't listen to him. </p>
<p>Perhaps you just wish to see Asian kids being more rebellious to their parents? Its funny because white parents in Asia raising their kids in international schools there report a higher level of satisfaction with parental/child relations than in America.</p>
<p>
[quote]
it's bad parenting for all parents in general to push their kids too hard upon where it is called 'force'. you said yourself that thats what the majority of asian parents do, so yea, that's pretty bad parenting. it's pretty sickening for any parents to see their kids in such limited horizons, i.e. solely in the terms of grades and accomplishments. </p>
<p>and you're now likening another poster to white supremicists?
thats pathetic.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>the concept of cultural relativity is completely over your head. I attribute that lack of understanding on your part on your education. Perhaps your college was not ranked in the top 10 in US History, Ethnic Studies, Sociology, etc...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am sure that you cannot deny that the Ivies discriminate against Asians.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The mere fact of repeating the same fallacy over and over and over does not make it true. Are you able to cite a single case of discrimination that has been successfully brought against any school in the Ivy League by Asian plaintiffs? Nowithstanding that the Ivy League has a quasi-monopoly of legal talent, I am sure that someone should have been able to find a two-bit lawyer to fight such case if there was one, especially since every case of discrimination in colleges HAS to be investigated by the Department of Education. </p>
<p>The reality is that the claims have no foundation and lack merit. On the admissions' statistics, how could you establish discrimination when Asians are grossly over-represented? On the qualifications' statistics, how could you establish discrimination when Asians are underperforming white applicants in the critical range of SAT scores (such as scores of 750+ in verbal SAT1 and SATII)? </p>
<p>If you look for discrimination and questionable admissions' policies, start with your own alma mater!</p>
<p>
[quote]
On the qualifications' statistics, how could you establish discrimination when Asians are underperforming white applicants in the critical range of SAT scores (such as scores of 750+ in verbal SAT1 and SATII)?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Source: College Board </p>
<p>in 2003, there were 670,000 White testtakers, and 101,000 Asian testakers. </p>
<p>750 + SAT Math </p>
<p>6,000 Asian students or 5.94% of Asians scored 750 or above on SAT Math vs. 2.1% of White students. Asians scored above 750 at THREE TIMES THE RATE of white students. And all international IQ specialists will agree that math is a better indicator of IQ than verbal because verbal skills are impossible to measure across different languages, and math IQ is something that is universal. </p>
<p>Now lets look at SAT Verbal. </p>
<p>3000 Asians and 14000 whites scored above 750 on SAT Verbal. Now thats 2.97% of Asians and 2.09% of whites that scored above 750 on SAT Verbal. Asians include international Asians and recently immigrated Asians, so that percentage would be even higher if Asian Americans were isolated. </p>
<p>Thanks for playing.</p>
<p>wow it seems Xiggi has met his intellectual alter ego in california1600.</p>
<p>California, the beauty of statistics is that the same data can support divergent conclusions. You may look at the percentages, I will look at the absolute numbers. </p>
<p>In pool of applicants of a typical Ivy League school, the number of white studenst who present superior test scores will always dwarf the number of Asians. The absolute numbers are important to consider when analyzing the potential pool of applications. Using the quoted statistics -a note on that later- the ratio is quite different at 14 to 3. And this would assume that the quoted percentage were indeed correct. Do I have to say more? </p>
<p>As far as the quotation used, you ought to be a bit more careful -for intellectual integrity, go back and check the EXACT source of the information you quoted ever so arbitrarily: the only information that was sourced at The College Board was the number of test takers. The percentage were nothing more than hypothetical numbers conceded in a discussion with a rather untrustworthy and mathematically challenged source. I happen to know that for a very good reason!</p>
<p>Anyone with a bit of experience and understanding of the TCB's statistical data knows that it has been years since TCB disclosed the breakdown of scores by ethnic groups. Your inexperience and lack of understanding is clearly evidenced by your assessment of the impact of foreign students in the overall statistics. Your lack of knowledge of the SAT statistics was apparent in prior discussions in the SAT Preparation. Again, repeating fallacies do not equate to establishing the truth. </p>
<p>Now that you know where your misquoted 2003 numbers came from, do you still care to "play"?</p>
<p>By the way, here are the numbers that I quoted orginally.<br>
[quote]
I. SAT STATISTICS (Source The College Board website/Blazer1 for %of Asians Top Scores)
In 2003, there were about 670,000 White tests and 101,000 Asians tests.
The mean scores were:
Asians Verbal = 508; MATH = 575
White Verbal = 529; MATH = 534
In 1999, the scores were:
Asians Verbal = 498; MATH = 560
White Verbal = 527; MATH = 528 </p>
<p>Students with 750+ Math
Asians = 6,000 in 99 and 3827 in 95
White = 14,000 in 99 and 9519 in 95 </p>
<p>Students with 750 Verbal
Asians = 3,000 in 99 and 1476 in 95
White = 14,000 in 99 and 8976 in 95 </p>
<p>In 1999, Students with 650+ Math
Asians = 27,000
White = 165,000 </p>
<p>In 1999, Students with 700 Verbal
Asians = 6,000
White = 35,000
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As far as Asian parenting goes, my hat goes off to them. I have nothing but the most respect for the Asian families who have managed to convey the importance of education to their children and instilled a good work ethic in them. And as far as the immigrant families go, I have no better advice to any family moving here, than to work hard on the academic ladder, particularly for the children. All ethnic groups, all socio economic groups can learn a lot from the way Asians tend to parent their children.</p>
<p>That has nothing to do with the situation with admissions at selective colleges. A top academic record is the best credential one can work towards for college admissions. The chances of being a superstar athlete, a gifted musician with the passion to study music, any of the other routes are highly dependent on other factor than hard work and study skills. And Asian parents are certainly preparing their children well in this very basic credential. Where the problem lies, is the difficulty in understanding that this is not the only criteria. Harvard only selects about a third of its student for academic excellence, and those kids have something other than just high grades and test scores to qualify for that acceptance. Some evidence of a passion and talent in the field of academia that is above and beyond high accomplishment on the basic requirements (ie the test scores and grades). Asians still do very well in admissions, but there are always a large group who are not accepted that bring up the question of "why?". I can tell you that kids with the "Asian Profile" who are not Asian have the same issues and are also often not accepted with great academic profiles. There are only so many kids colleges accept with that profile, regardless of ethnic back ground unless they kid is URM which takes up on a small percent of the seats. Believe me, I do not see too many URMs going into engineering and sciences in the top schools. They are not what are taking up many Asian seats.</p>
<p>I will tell you something else I have observed in the Northeast. Very, very few Asians working in Admissions offices. Now if so many Asians are so danged concern of a conspiracy, of a systematic effort to keep out Asians from the top colleges, why are so few Asians interested in working in college administration services, including admissions? I think it is because the pay is very low, the people who go into the field tend to have nonspecific majors as far as careers go (no engineering majors, for instance). Also the suits that have been filed about AA are not Asian specific for all of the specific accusations I have heard. Where are all of the smart, hot shot Asian lawyers that should be on this case for the sake of their children if Asians really feel that there is some discrimination here? </p>
<p>The problem with making a case from stats, is that there are many explanations for why stats are the way they are. And forget the SAT1 numbers, it has been said a million times that the SATs are only one part of the picture in college admissions. You cannot just take that one part and make a case of it that holds any water.</p>
<p>Note to Jamimom: I may be incorrect, but I recall hearing a Harvard admissions officer saying that only 10 percent, not a third, of its admits were what you're calling pure academic excellence students (I think he said something like "pure stats kids.")</p>
<p>asians are NOT discriminated against in colleges! The fact that they represent a larger percent in the student body across many "elite" campuses than in the general population attest to this. Man, at my school, the MAJORITY in the Engineering School are asians, and my school hoard them like crazy! Just looking at the few EDers this coming yr has my head spinning "SOUTH KOREA"</p>
<p>I want to attend an African Diaspora banquet, filipino dinner, cafe con leche discussions. life would be boring if we were all asians and whites. there's only so many seats in a class, and waaay more asians apply. even if they do decide that the whole entire class should be made up of asians (<strong><em>SHUDDER</em></strong>) the rejected ones will still feel like they had their "spot" stolen...by laosians, vietnamese, filipinos, cambodians once they find out the class is all asians. ridiculous.</p>
<p>Let me just say that I agree with everything California1600 said. The American educational system is INHERENTLY racist against Asian-Americans.</p>
<p>There have been some postings about Asian Americans with stereo-typical academic interests in Eng./Science/Medicine.</p>
<p>It may be partly because many have parents who are doctors and engineers (I actively discouraged my son to be an Engineer, but that is what he wants to do). Let us also not forget that many americans don't want to study those hard subjects. Even if they do become engineers, they stop after B.S. Many have a goal of getting in to management after punching engineering ticket. The graduate schools all around the country have majority foreign nationals than natives pursuing M. S. or Ph. D.s</p>
<p>Harp, oboe, tuba or french horn players or a soccer or foot ball player isn't going to invent stuff that will drive the economic engine.</p>
<p>um...for a second there, i thought eng = english ... shows you how I think.</p>
<p>i know many people who are engineers AND oboe, tuba, french horn, or soccer player. they lead a much more interesting life IMHO. it's not hard you know -- to do both. it's just many choose not to do anything other than study because they are antisocial, shy, passive or whatnot.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Anyone with a bit of experience and understanding of the TCB's statistical data knows that it has been years since TCB disclosed the breakdown of scores by ethnic groups. Your inexperience and lack of understanding is clearly evidenced by your assessment of the impact of foreign students in the overall statistics. Your lack of knowledge of the SAT statistics was apparent in prior discussions in the SAT Preparation. Again, repeating fallacies do not equate to establishing the truth.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, neither does denial.
Fact is that in ALL UC's, Accepted East Asians have a higher SAT average than their White counterparts. Now you can jitsu it all you want, but lets not kid ourselves here. Fuzzy math will destroy the US, make buildings fall, bridges collapse. So the more you use Fuzzy Math irresponsibly, the more our country will suffer in the long run. </p>
<p>Asians have to perform better, do more, score better, be smarter, work harder, etc.. to be on the same playing field. Now, every single Asian American has felt that. Do you really think that is going to disappear just because you come here and say so? Please, I don't think anyone is that stupid.</p>
<p>I noticed that you switched the discussion to the UC system with the added twist of confining the discussion to East Asians. </p>
<p>Instead of debating your claims of the discrimination against Asians at the Ivies, now you would expect to discuss the statistics at the UC. I have zero interest in such a subject! Why would I spend any energy debating a system that allows Foreign Languages SAT-II taken by natives to pad applicant's records? If you want a playing field, allow all other applicants to take a TOEFL test and substitute that for a English SAT-II, except that the TOEFL is a bit higher than the 4th grade level of the Korean and Chinese SAT-II for native speakers. </p>
<p>Speaking about denial and fuzzy mathematics, I am not the one who attempted such antics. You visibly tried to use statistics -that you do not quite understand- to create absolute fiction. </p>
<p>Nobody will ever deny that asian students have demonstrated to be superb students. Regardless if they were pushed by family,respectful of traditions, or simply driven by their inner strength, the results are truly remarkable. The mere fact that Asians are over-represented by 400% at the most selective schools is a testament to the work, dedication, and intelligence of the asian population. </p>
<p>However, the whining by a small percentage of the same population is far less remarkable. The rants about the negative impact of Affirmative Action does not speak well for an ethnic group that has benefitted tremendously -according to Asian Nation- from diversity policies at our institutions of higher learning. It is obvious that the whining is not so much about the advantages given to URM than it is about the exclusion of Asians from the benefits of AA. The URM are not taking any of the Asian spots, equally qualified white students are! The same white students who face much lower odds to be accepted, even on academics. </p>
<p>All the whining is nothing more than the product of misguided entitlement. Given acceptance rates in the single digits, nobody can claim: "Look at my scores, there is NO WAY HYPS won't accept me." Every year, while the majority of students are deserving of attending a hyper-prestigious school, more than 90% of students are rejected. Why would it be different for the 100,000 to 150,000 asian students? Rejected students were not "screwed over", there is simply not enough space for all of the applicants. </p>
<p>Nobody had ever said that asian students are not deserving; they are, however, not MORE deserving than the other ethnic groups. The difference is subtle but real.</p>
<p>Truth, Xiggi. My D had a 3.9uw/1580/2330 with 5 AP's and great recs and outstanding commitment to EC's. Didn't get into H, Y, or S. You know what? I read the profiles the last two years and, as good as she was, she was nothing remarkable.</p>
<p>Simba, you're generally a reasonable chap even if I don't agree with you.</p>
<p>But:<br>
[quote]
Harp, oboe, tuba or french horn players or a soccer or foot ball player isn't going to invent stuff that will drive the economic engine.
[/quote]
is one of the stupidest things put on CC within the past month and you have hardy competition.</p>
<p>wow Thedad now we are losing our cool. This was in response to generic impression I got reading the threads and other threads like this one that many like you think that asians confine to stereotypical ec's like playing piano or violin, or become math bowl captains or Intel Westinghouse finalist. They don't play unusual instruments or participate in sports. Even if they played sport it will be non brutal sport like tennis.</p>
<p>They shouldn't complain because they are over represented by a factor of gazzilion.</p>
<p>The point being that we talk about racial diversity in colleges or work place, but when the rubber hits the road it is all talk. In real life asians are cast as good worker bees - feed them enough but not make them fat (managers).</p>
<p>I don't know what else you wrote. The post was edited by Trinity.</p>
<p>california1600 has some valid points and remarkable depth on the subject.</p>
<p>Wasn't it you who gave advice to half asian girl not to put her asian ethnicity unless she applied to some school in Alabama? (well in Alabama anyone who lives more than 500 miles away is a URM)</p>
<p> Not a single letter of TheDad's post was edited out; the editing corrected the format of the post. Mod Trinity </p>
<p>"california1600 has some valid points and remarkable depth on the subject."</p>
<p>Simba, I believed that your capability for fine analysis was restricted to the Caf</p>