asian students aiming at top colleges

College Search & Selection
1

<p>it simply amazes me how much more tough for an asian student, than for students of other ethnic origins, ranked at top two or three of a very competitive high school to get accepted into some colleges like HYPS. But the asian students near the top of a competitive high schools can get more readily accepted into schools like MIT, UChicago, ... and this unfair selectivity of asian applicants is related to the fact that these schools (HYPS and other highly selective schools) allocate a big portion of each entering class to the URM + Sports + Legacy which approaches nearly half of the class, accroding to an article. For comparable stats and extracurricular activities, the admission rate for asians may be (much) less than half of that for any other ethnic group.</p>

<p>So, the question is, should the asian highschool students even bother to try these ultraselective (for asian students) schools, only to have a dashed dream, only to decrease the admission rate for these schools (so help raise their ranking) and nothing more, but the asian applicants completely waste their time, money and energy ? Or should the asian students sabotage these schools and aim at the more 'fair' schools like MIT, Chicago, ... (where the athletes, URMs and athletes count less) as their top choices?</p>

2

<p>You are making such a generalization statement that does not make any sense. All I know is that there are lots of Asians attending the Ivies, more than ever before, but how do you know the “harder” part? Where did you get the stats that Aisans are being discriminated? You mentioned highly competitive HS, but which one are you talking about? Did you feel being discriminated? What are your stats and EC’s?</p>

3

<p>Like you, I am uneasy about the current state of affairs. I am jewish, and jews are considered “over-represented” as well. I actually have to tell my kid to hide the fact that he is jewish (actually, he is 1/2 jewish). Every thinking person would be in favor of affirmative action for truly disadvantaged minority kids, but the affirmative action program, in my view, has basically “devolved” into a quota system, which values “diversity” for its own sake.</p>

<p>Schools say that they engage in “holistic” admissions, but I think that they already have preconceived notions regarding how many of this minority they want, and how many of that minority they want, and then they find excuses to justify admitting such students. They can then make subjective rather than objective decisions. Hence, the trend towards SAT optional schools. Schools now openly take a non-disadvantaged kid just because he is african american or hispanic, simply to increase “diversity”, for the sake of diversity.</p>

<p>As for me, if I need a surgeon for my kid, I want the one most qualified. If 99% of the best candidates at a particular medical school are asian, then so be it. </p>

<p>It doesn’t mean asians shouldn’t try to get into the top schools. Even if you don’t get into the school of your dreams because of reverse discrimination, you will eventually rise to the top. </p>

<p>I remain amazed that most of the people on CC have no problem with the way asians are treated in the college admission process. In fact, when an asian posts a message like yours, I see that he often gets nasty derogatory responses, as if you should simply accept this reverse discrimination with a smile on your face. As if it’s OK to say to an asian from a poor family, “I know you were good enough to get into Harvard, and that Harvard was your dream, but even though you have to go to Vanderbilt instead, be happy with that”. How many white kids on CC would be happy if THEIR college applications were treated in a similar manner?</p>

<p>I don’t even have a problem with giving URMs “some” preference, but it seems that middle class and upper middle class URMs are subject to completely different standards. They only have to be plausible candidates, not the best candidates. They only have to be qualified, not the best qualified. Politically and socially, society has determined that we can’t simply do things on merit, because then, for example, the top schools at the University of California systems would probably be 90% asians and 10% jewish. As it is, even with reverse discrimination, some schools are heavily asian. While I understand the need for diversity, and do see the need to admit reasonably qualified african americans into our top schools, I still feel uneasy about the way asians are treated. They are being punished and are essentially being held back for being “too good”. THEY are being asked to sacrifice THEIR spots at the top colleges to further OUR views of social equity.</p>

4

<p>“Where did you get the stats that Asians are being discriminated?”</p>

<p>Do you know any ultra selective college that releases detailed admission data such as admit rate by race, average SAT/ACT scores and GPA by race and so on?</p>

5

<p>

</p>

<p>Holistic admissions are necessarily opaque to outsiders (and not necessarily consistent by any pre-set rules). Which means that:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It is possible to “hide” selection criteria that the admissions committee does not want to make public.</p></li>
<li><p>It is possible that unintended biases could be applied.</p></li>
<li><p>Even if neither #1 nor #2 is the case, outsiders will be suspicious that #1 or #2 exists. No amount of data (or anecdotal examples) will satisfy both those who are convinced that #1 or #2 exists, and those who are convinced that #1 or #2 does not exist, at any given school (unless it is really blatant, which is not the case).</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Note that whether such hidden or unintended bias actually exists is a different argument from whether Asian applicants should be held to higher standards or more limited in admissions than white applicants (which few, but non-zero, posters do seem to argue, and which tends to get mixed up in these kinds of threads).</p>

<p>That said, the super-selective schools get so many “near-maximum stat” applicants that they really don’t have much choice other than to use things that can only be evaluated holistically.</p>

6

<p>“……whether Asian applicants should be held to higher standards or more limited in admissions……”</p>

<p>I know what I saw.
Over the years, I have witnessed white students and URMs did a lot better than Asian males in highly selective college admissions. If you are an Asian male without any hook, then you better be a SUPERMAN (or EXTREMELY LUCKY) to get into one of those colleges.</p>

7

<p>Just try your best and apply to all the schools that you would like to attend and see what happens. This is a sad reality and there’s nothing we could do about it as of now.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you.</p>

8

<p>Could you maybe search this forum? These issues have been discussed in probably dozens, if not hundreds, of threads.</p>

9

<p>

</p>

<p>Maybe students should stop dividing the world so thinly into ultraselective, superselective, and highly selective. I mean, it’s hardly as though MIT, Chicago, etc. are appreciable steps down from HYPS on ANY dimension. </p>

<p>One would also think that bright Asian students would try to, forgive the expression, yin where others yang, and look at LAC’s, particularly those in the midwest and south, where being Asian might be of some benefit. Chasing the same schools as everyone else, as though they are the only schools worth attending, really isn’t very bright.</p>

10

<p>When you say “Asian”, are you referring to those from Asia only or to those Americans who also happen to be of the “Asian” race, plus the foreigners?</p>

<p>If Asian-Americans are finding it hard to gain entry to the ‘top’ colleges that’s something that shouldn’t be tolerated, if, indeed, merit is the benchmark for admission.</p>

<p>If, however, it is the foreign Asians that find it hard to get in then I have little to no sympathy. I believe that the colleges of this country have a duty to its citizens first.</p>

<p>China, just to take the largest elephant in the room, probably has enough college-age students to fill every one of our 3000 or so degree granting colleges an universities several times over. Is it our responsibility to educate every other country’s standout scholars and tell our own be damned?!</p>

<p>It is way past time for countries such as China, India and Korea to establish their own highly competitive schools, numerous enough to accomodate the vast majority of their own people, instead of taking advantage of an American system that is wholly unprotective of its own. Can you imagine that way of thinking tolerated in THOSE countries?! The U.S. is a pushover and a stepping stone …</p>

11

<p>“I remain amazed that most of the people on CC have no problem with the way asians are treated in the college admission process. In fact, when an asian posts a message like yours, I see that he often gets nasty derogatory responses, as if you should simply accept this reverse discrimination with a smile on your face.”</p>

<p>That might be a great example of how race might affect viewpoint, regardless of wealth or adversity. I spend WAY too much time here, and I don’t see “most people on CC” that way at ALL! Sure, there are some who are seen on every race thread ( and there are MANY! Including the great FAQ thread to rule them all), but I don’t think I’ve noticed “most” having any particular view.</p>

12

<p>“When you say “Asian”, are you referring to those from Asia only or to those Americans who also happen to be of the “Asian” race, plus the foreigners?”</p>

<p>I am talking about Asian-Americans.
(Are we considered to be an American?)</p>

13

<p>Leanid:</p>

<p>Good post, but I think most of the asians involved here are indeed AMERICANS.</p>

<p>Many have been in this country for over 100 years.</p>

<p>There is something wrong, in my view, about making asian-americans bear the burden of affirmative action, when they had little if anything to do with the oppression of African Americans in this country. Nor should they be penalized because they seem to value academics more than other ethnic groups. Not to mention the fact that colleges are purposely rejecting the most super qualified applicants. Don’t we want the very best doctors, engineers, etc. that we can find? </p>

<p>You make a good point. India and China, with two billion people between them, are eventually going to inundate the Harvards and the Yales of this country. Our colleges, rightly or wrongly, seem to feel they are international institutions, and not primarily american institutions. </p>

<p>I read an article in The New York Times about six months ago about students from China applying to Grinnell, and how 1/2 the applicants from China had perfect 800’s on their Math SATs.</p>

14

<p>“(Are we considered to be an American?)”</p>

<p>Of course, you are Americans!</p>

15

<p>dad55,</p>

<p>I agree with you, and I’ll add that it is absolutely astonishing that our colleges see nothing wrong with this ‘open the floodgates’ mentality where foreign applicants are concerned. And, shun their implicit responsibility to this nation’s own citizens, being the very products and beneficiaries of America themselves.</p>

<p>It is wholly distasteful. and a slap in the face of the American citizen.</p>

16

<p>OP</p>

<p>mathematicism gave you the best advice.</p>

<p>Try your best and apply to many colleges and see what happens.</p>

17

<p>“Politically and socially, society has determined that we can’t simply do things on merit, because then, for example, the top schools at the University of California systems would probably be 90% asians and 10% jewish.”</p>

<p>Floridadad, that statement is a little extreme don’t you think? Are you insinuating that non-jewish caucasians, African American, Latin American and Native American kids are not as capable or intellectually driven as Asian and Jewish kids? You make it seem that if top universities only went on merit, they would be entirely populated with Asian and Jewish students. </p>

<p>I also do not think that your son needs to hide his religion because there is no evidence that universities discourage the enrollment of Jewish students. Keeping in mind that only 2% of Americans are Jewish, the below statistics demonstrate that there is not outward discrimination against Jewish students:</p>

<p>INSTITUTION: % OF UNDERGRADS THAT ARE JEWISH
Emory University: 30%
Yale University: 27%
Washington University SL: 26%
Brown University: 25%
Columbia University: 25%
Harvard University: 25%
Tufts University: 25%
University of Pennsylvania: 25%
Cornell University: 23%
Northwestern University: 20%
University of Michigan: 18%</p>

<p><a href=“http://reformjudaismmag.org/_kd/Items/actions.cfm?action=Show&item_id=1647&destination=ShowItem[/url]”>http://reformjudaismmag.org/_kd/Items/actions.cfm?action=Show&item_id=1647&destination=ShowItem&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

18

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<p>That’s ridiculous. Jews are what, 2%, 3% of the population and are 20%-30% of the population at many elite schools. Every top university has a thriving Jewish community and resources (Hillel, other student groups, etc.). Why would you have to hide it? This sounds like my almost-80-year FIL, who is convinced there is an anti-Semite lurking around every corner.</p>

19

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<p>Floridadad, this is exactly what I meant. I observed the local public high school, which is ranked well inside of the upper half of Newsweek magazine’s America’s Top 500 public high schools, and this school is always ranked at the first or second in the region’s top 100 high schools (rated by a business group). I have been observing the college placement of the top ranked asian graduates from this school (many of whom gain national distinction/honor such as in Chemistry competition, Carnegie Hall performance, Math competition, Intel or Siemens science competition, etc.). Typically 6-8 of the top ten graduates are asians in this school which has about 10-11% of the class asians. For the last few years, no one was accepted into H or P or S, maybe one Y per year except for several years ago, one student was accepted into harvard but his last name was spelled in english which doesn’t sound like a chinese (it sounds more like italian last name)! He also racked up an enormous amount of social volunteer hours, but less of national academic distinction. Other than this, all vals went to schools ranked in schools like Duke, MIT, etc. When my children were applying to colleges I paid a keen attention in the process and realized just how unfairly competitive this was for the asian kids (reminding me of the Jewish quota system that (some) IVY’s practiced, which kept Richard Feynman out of Columbia. Rejected by Columbia, Dr.Feynman went to MIT). In fact the asians are the single greatest victim of this affirmative action being practiced in the college admission process, but sadly asians are mostly silent on this – or often they are the first to mock on this if someone posts on it (like some responses you see here or in Harvard board last year) … some of the asians even say that they rather go to a school with less asians … no wonder why these so-called top schools have such an easy time of practicing this ridiculous ‘quota’ system against the asians.</p>

20

<p>Alexandre:</p>

<p>You ask me if I am insinuating that non-jewish caucasions, african american, Latin American, and Native American kids are not as capable or intellectually driven as Asian and Jewish kids?</p>

<p>Those are two separate questions. With respect to being more intellectually driven, then yes, I am indeed insinuating that as an overall group, (but not on an individual basis, because obviously, there are many many exceptions) that many ethnic groups, when considered as an overall group, do not work as hard academically or even place as great an emphasis on the importance of academics as do asians, asian indians, and jews. To me, this is self evident, albeit not politically incorrect to say. If you think that all ethnic groups are equally capable, but if asians and jews are far far “over” represented at the top universities, then it would seem that you must answer in the affirmative as to whether asians and jews are more intellectually driven, would it not?</p>

<p>And it is just not because asians and jews grow up in an upper middle class environment. For example, why do even poor Asian kids who attend inner city schools in California (recent immigrants) seemingly always rise to the top of their class, even though they are going to the same exact school as the other minorities at the school, despite having language difficulties, as recent immigrants.</p>