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Hi @nirvanafan007 - What are you studying? How has the quality of teaching been? The 4 year graduation rate seems quite low for a university of this caliber. Why do you think that is so?
Thanks
Also how bad is SAGES?
Howdy @smokinact I am double majoring in Cognitive Science and Computer Science. I am in the College of Arts and Sciences. I can tell you that the quality of teaching has been excellent in the classes I’ve taken. However, a lot of the introductory engineering classes (aside from Calc I and Calc II) have pretty bad professors–either that or the classes are really hard. I say this because those are the classes that typically have a lot of complaints. However, I’ve found that ALL of the professors are extremely approachable. Even at the introductory level. I’ve spent a lot of time casually talking with professors about cognitive science after class. The only classes that are gigantic are obviously the ones that are associated with the engineering core.
The 4 year graduation rate. Good question. Here are a few reasons I think it’s relatively low:
- Premedicine. I believe I read somewhere on the premed advisor page that they sometimes suggest that students take a little extra time to either boost their GPA or prepare for the MCAT and the medical school application.
- Combined MS/BS programs. These usually take 5 years.
- Co-ops/Practicums. A lot of students engage in co-ops or practicums for a semester which in some cases delays their graduation.
- Engineering curriculum + double majoring. Some engineers try to do too much and are forced to stay another semester or two to complete their respective majors.
SAGES. It’s not terrible. Many professors either don’t like to or aren’t supposed to teach a writing class. For example, some EECS professors teach SAGES. They don’t really have expertise in writing. However, I’ve taken a SAGES with a Pulitzer Prize winner and it was the best class I’ve taken so far. Also, many students are engineers. They don’t like to write unless it involves an integral or something (somewhat kidding). They’re usually the ones that complain about it because a writing assignment often gets in the way of a math test or chemistry test. I can tell you from experience that many of the engineers in my SAGES class turned in subpar work. To me it’s shocking because it wasn’t up to what I thought the university expected. I never saw their grades, however.
Personally, I like the idea of SAGES. The quality of the class is highly dependent on the professor and not the topic. Rate My Professor will save you in this regard. Don’t turn your nose up at it because you should always be writing. It’s arguably the most effective mode of communication.
@nirvanafan007 Thanks for the answers. My daughter has chosen engineering but she is an excellent writer. IMO she would have little tolerance to poor grammar and sub-par writing and it is because of this I am concerned about a lot of tech focused schools because the institution gives in to the shortsightedness of engineering students who look at writing as at best an inconvenience.
@smokinact I’m definitely in the same boat in terms of writing. Her excellence in writing will certainly be awarded in the SAGES classes, and it will definitely set her apart from other engineering students.
how do you like the food? and dorms?
@paraguas The food isn’t bad, actually. I think it’s far better than what you find at a state school or UChicago (heh). There’s a lot of options if you don’t want to eat at the dining hall too. The dorms for freshman and sophomores, on the other hand, are subpar especially when compared to other schools. It sucks that you have to live on campus the first two years. However, the upperclassmen have really, really nice apartment-style dorms.
Nirvanafan, what is the difference between CS in Arts and Sciences and CS in Engineering? Have you found CS summer jobs, where did you work?
@Coloradomama The difference between the two is that one will get you a BA and the other will get you a BS. The BS, which is through the School of Engineering, requires you to take the engineering core (your chemistry, physics, math, etc).
I have not found any summer work regarding CS. However, my search isn’t really focused on CS. For me, CS provides technical training for applications of cognitive science. For example, how can we create computational models for perception? Decision making? In the summer of my freshman year (I’m a sophomore now) I did research on human random number generation and causal determinism.
Also, I’m interested in consulting, which doesn’t really require a specific major unless you’re trying to get into tax and audit consulting. So my focus isn’t really on your typical CS job. However, a lot of people I know do summer work or co-ops at Yelp and Google.
SAGES is my sons worst class. The TA grades the papers and isn’t very approachable. It’s bringing down his GPA. Not to mention it’s 4 credit class. All other classes are 3 credit. Unfortunately he isn’t able to get into a SAGE class for the Spring semester. He also email another teacher to see if they would let him in and the answer was NO. Who is your SAGE teacher?
@Linski Tell your son to not freak out about not having a SAGES for the spring semester of freshman year. They fill up extremely quickly if you’re not a freshman, especially the ones with the best professors. A lot of people like to get SAGES out of the way ASAP but it’s not the end of the world if you have to postpone it for one semester. I had Sheeler and Absher for my SAGES (I didn’t take one spring of my freshman year).
Also, some do open up during winter break so make sure to check back multiple times throughout the break and see if anything works out then.
I had a difficult TA in another class my freshman year. My grade was borderline the whole semester and the professor ended up giving an extra credit assignment at the very end of the semester because everyone was getting screwed by this TA. To be fair, she was just counteracting grade inflation in cognitive science ;).
My son is a freshman pursuing an as-yet unidentified engineering major. His Calc III teacher is not at all good (as you’ll have seen in my other post on this topic) so he is withdrawing and re-taking next semester. Fortunately he managed to avoid that teacher. Honestly I found this annoying, but I hear it happens at other schools. Grr…
However, his SAGES class has been good! He likes the teacher, who is a prof in the business school. And I like CWRU because of the writing that is required - yes, engineers should know how to write. I think my son agrees that he benefits from the experience even if it is not perhaps his first love.
He was not able to fit a SAGES seminar into his schedule for spring semester. Nor has he been able to fit any Phys Ed classes in. But his schedule seems packed without these, so maybe that’s for the best.
I suspect that the low four year grad rate is partly due to lots of engineering majors, who have lots of requirements. It is easy enough to fall out of sequence if someone is not paying attention and/or does a coop. Definitely makes that scholarship important if we may end up paying for another semester or year.
BTW I have not seen grade inflation in the engin classes. Son went to competitive STEM high school and did very well, but he is finding CWRU very challenging and his mid-term grades were not stellar.
The freshman dorms suck but whatever. No AC and it was really quite hot for at least the first six weeks - like sleeping in a sauna. I wonder how that affected grades? Hey, at least this isn’t one of those schools that coddles the students and treats them like guests at a luxury hotel! A certain toughness is developed which is not a bad thing.
Having said all that, this is all more or less expected. I think first semester is tough on everyone and I am hearing similar little gripes from all my friends including with kids at much fancier schools.
I should add that my son really likes his Physics prof a lot and is looking forward to taking Physics next semester. He’s taking the “enhanced” version, which is like regular physics (electricity and magnetism this semester) but with more chaos theory. His Chemistry teacher (appears to be a grad student?) is fine, if a tough grader. So, he really only got one dud this semester.
The lower graduation numbers are also due to mental health issues/ failing out. Case has a very large mental health problem. Many people take a semester or two off during their time at Case. There are also many people who fail out or give up. The university has a crazy high workload, so if you are not really smart and work hard it is difficult to pass. People don’t like to talk about it, so its largely unknown. Case is also unique in that it gets much more difficult as you get further. My hardest class freshman year would be my easiest class now… Many people who take more than 4 years to graduate also changed their majors late.
The sages classes themselves are not that bad (if you can get into a decent one). Unfortunately you have to take 3 semesters, a departmental seminar (1 semester), and senior project (1 semester). It takes up of class space. Honestly, I really didn’t learn much from it.
Engineering also has no grade inflation (except maybe bme). There are several classes where the majority of the class will get a c or worse. Don’t know as much about other departments.
Dorms are pretty poor for all years. Upperclass dorms look nice on the outside, but have many issues (ex. heat didn’t work in my suite last year, elevators never work…). The newer dorms were made as cheaply as possible and they charge 2 or 3 times what you would pay for an apartment off campus. Sophomore year your room is literally 9x8 feet.
Food is nothing special. It is crazy overpriced.
CS summer jobs are very easy to come by. Everyone I know who tried got one. Even my friend who started looking a month before school let out.
@smokinact don’t worry about writing. Engineering students write as well as anyone else at Case. She will have to write a lot of technical reports, and while grammar isn’t the focus, professors expect quality writing.
BS and BA in CS are very similar. BS has a few more required classes and completion of the engineering core. It doesn’t really matter which one a student picks. I personally like the BA better because you have more room to take CS classes that are relevant to what you want to do.
I had dinner with a friend last night whose hs friend who went to Case and had to take a leave of absence because of mental health issues related to the combination of his drive and the shear amount of work at Case. He eventually graduated from Case.
I wonder if the occurs frequently at any rigorous tech school?
@smokinact, good question. The four year graduation rate at RPI, which I consider comparable, is about 60%. How much of that is mental health and how much is related to sequence/missing requirements, taking time for coops, dropping and retaking classes, is hard to say.
I also know someone whose son took off a semester for mental health reasons. But another friend’s son who is an electrical engineering major, and pretty much a normal guy (not a super genius over-achiever type) is doing fine.
I lived in one of those “Sophomore rooms” all 4 years (they did housing differently back in the day)…You get your own room, which is efficiently furnished, and you share an livingroom and bathroom with other people in your suite. So for an introvert, it was perfect…you can choose when to spend time with people and when not to.
@smokinact I think it happens much more than people want to talk about at all relatively high-pressure schools. Certainly true of the ivies and their ilk. (Cautionary note for any HS students currently turning themselves inside out to get into their “dream” schools.)
@porcupine98 That is why I think you need some balance between academic, physical and social activities. If a student body has so much work that the latter two fall by the wayside that could form a breeding ground for mental issues.
@nirvanafan007 - do you think there is a bit of a mismatch between Case’s reputed workload and who they are admitting? Also, how proactive is Case in fostering non-academic activities on campus?