Asking for another parent whose child applied very late in the app cycle (didn’t know better), has med school quality stats, but because of the lateness, didn’t receive any IIs.
Well, a friend of the family has a child at a Caribbean med school, so they’re pushing her to go. She’s applied and has an interview and likely will be accepted. Of course, the family friend’s son, being a current student, has NO IDEA what his residency results will be for awhile, so right now, his support for his school is essentially worthless.
Obviously, I know that this is a bad idea. Please list the negatives that you know to be true.
Caribbean medical schools often control who can apply to american residencies. Don’t do well enough on preclnical courses? Can’t take step 1. Don’t do well enough on step 1? Can’t go to 3rd year. Don’t do well enough in 3rd year? Can’t take step 2 and/or apply to residencies. Even after that weeding, the majority of caribbean students don’t get any residency. Now you’re $300k in debt and no more qualified for any jobs than you were out of undergrad. If you are among the 40-45% who get a residency (and that number is only going down with more and more american medical schools being opened and the impending merging of ACGME and AACOM allowing for more DO students to take spots in MD residency programs) odds are you’ll be doing primary care in an undesirable area.
If US MD is not an option, DO is a far, far, far better idea than caribbean MD.
I don’t know anything about this subject, but wanted to mention that my husband’s former GP went to a Caribbean medical school, and it was something my husband noticed immediately. Now this guy was a very solid physician so it worked out fine (he was somebody on our insurance). Still, I think my husband was skeptical at first. This doc was a little older, though, maybe in his late 50’s now.
From reading horror stories, kids who go to the Caribbean are facing a shrinking number of residency options, it will only get worse with the DO/MD residency integration.
I have seen medical blogs about American kids taking international residencies as their only option.
Caribbean schools seem to be a for profit business and seem to play hardball with the students. I have no firsthand knowledge and I know, too, that we can all find stories online about bad luck with US-MD schools, too. But, when my kid was applying with lower than ideal MCAT, we evaluated MD, DO, Caribbean, and there is no way I would have supported the Caribbean option,
I do know many Canadians who did UK-MD and when they left for med school in 2000-2006 era, things were optimistic, but coming back to Canada was a real challenge, those UK med schools have a good reputation, the Caribbeans ones are generally ranked lower, but still, it was hard to get back to North America, just based on the changes in the 6-7 years they had been gone.
Aside from the negatives mentioned above, state licensing boards treat US IMGs differently than US grads. While US grads only need 1 year of residency to be eligible for a medical license, Caribbean grads must have 2 or 3 years of residency to be eligible. And there are at least 6-8 states which will not license IMGs at all.
Want more evidence?
Here are some blogs of the experiences by current/recent Carib students---and the picture isn't pretty.
<a href="https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/counting-the-points/">https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/counting-the-points/</a>
<a href="http://www.6medschool.com/2012_07_01_archive.html">http://www.6medschool.com/2012_07_01_archive.html</a>
<a href="http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/untitled">http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/untitled</a>
Additional articles about why the Caribbean is a bad idea--
Declining number of residency slots for US IMGs:
<a href="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1511707?query=TOC&&">http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1511707?query=TOC&&</a>
Bait & switch tactics of for-profit Caribbean med schools--
<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-09-10/devry-lures-medical-school-rejects-as-taxpayers-fund-debt">http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-09-10/devry-lures-medical-school-rejects-as-taxpayers-fund-debt</a>
And if you want actual numbers demonstrating why the Caribbean is bad idea, one of the [former] adcoms at SDN did some calculations
[quote]
One thing that AAMC, AACOM, NRMP and all the other acronyms have is data. <a href="http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ADT2015_final.pdf">http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ADT2015_final.pdf</a> (see Table 4)
In 2014, for US citizens who were graduates of International Medical College (IMG) here is a breakdown of the numbers
6,917 Total who submitted the ERAS application for NRMP.
691 Withdrew, which is mostly and automatically done if they did not pass STEP II exam
1,796 Did Not submit a ranking list, which is mostly done because they did not get any interviews at a residency program
2,354 Did Not match into any residency slot
2,660 Matched into a slot
[/quote]
One of the best physicians in our city is a caribbean med school grad. However, there were very specific and unusual circumstances that led to this choice which aren’t in play here. And an N of 1, isn’t too helpful. If the student has the stats, I would encourage waiting a year and applying to US schools. I agree that the MD or DO route in US is preferred to anything overseas.
The issue really is residency choice. Yes, a good student who passes the steps will probably find a residency. However, the choices may be much more limited.
Since this student is a strong candidate who was late to the game, I would recommend one more application cycle. The Caribbean will still be there next year.
Although I have no personal knowledge, I offer a sampling of a recurring theme from reliable SDN posters/adcoms about Caribbean schools.
Law2Doc: http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/threads/hard-evidence-on-why-caribbean-is-not-an-option.1170599/#post-17127511
“Most people who go to the Caribbean are people who did poorly in undergrad but think they can turn things around if given one more chance. Some do and the schools fail out the other half. My bet is there are very few people in offshore schools who could have gotten in in the US and so the distinction between subpar and the rest isn’t a huge range. So everyone applying offshore ought to realize that they could easily be in the half that fails out, and if they don’t fail out they could be in the next half that doesn’t match and if they do match they could be part of the X % that match into a dead end prelim. So it’s an uphill battle. You only do this if it’s the only avenue left to you. And not something you want to call “not too terrible”. It’s up there in terms of terrible.”
3 Your residency chances are much higher as a DO than a Caribbean MD. Thus, your chances of being employed as a physician after you invest a lot of time, money and effort are significantly higher if you go DO over Caribbean MD.
gyngyn http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/threads/is-there-any-truth-to-this-about-the-caribbeans.1123345/page-5#post-16257107
Though IMGS of every stripe still match to this day, the overwhelming majority of these candidates do not and the odds of success go down every year. To the degree that we are contributing to brain drain in any of the countries that needed the skills and service of their best and brightest, I am ashamed. One cannot compare schools designed to train doctors for their own countries to cash machines in the Caribbean designed to separate the desperate and gullible from their cash.
The majority of US matriculants to the Caribbean schools will never get a medical license in the US.
Even the most successful (with excellent USMLE scores) are lucky to get a spot in our worst dead end residency slots.
This amounts to institutional fraud. The washouts still owe the government for those loans that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. This is aside from the opportunity cost!
Also while reading, I can across another issue that Caribbean grads face–many of the “US rotations” offered to Caribbean schools aren’t “greenbook” (i.e. approved by ACGME and occurring at a teaching hospital that has a residency program in that specialty).
MS3-MS4 clinical rotations that aren’t “greenbook” will prevent a IMG from becoming eligible for a unrestricted medical license in a number of states–even if they have completed a US residency.
The military isn’t an avenue for IMGs to get post-graduate training either.
To be eligible for training (to include PGY-1), an applicant must be a graduate of a medical school in the US or Puerto Rico which is accredited by the LCME or AOA.
This is very odd. You can’t be “late” for med school , because med schools, even Carribean ones require MCAT. If MCAT scores are low, then the U.S. med schools won’t accept you. In this case the only thing to do is to go to DO school or to Carribean school. I think it is way better to get an MD from one of the Carribean schools than to get a DO. Carribean schools have rotations in the US. One of my friend’s kid graduated from Ross University and was accepted into UMDMJ residency program. I know quite a bit about it, both husband and step- daughter are MD’s.
Yes you can. The majority of medical schools use rolling admissions, the later you apply the fewer interview spots/seats left for you. At Brown we were advised that it was best to submit on day 1 AMCAS opens (in early june), excellent to submit in june, ok to submit in july, not good to submit in august and don’t even bother if it’s september. The actual AMCAS deadline for most schools is november or december.
I won’t ask whether it’s a primary care position and I won’t ask if it was just a prelim year dead end residency and assume that your friend’s kid got a true residency spot in their desired specialty. That person represents the minority. As demonstrated by the stats presented here and on SDN, probably 2/3 or more of the students who enter a caribbean medical school will not end up in a residency, and the ones who do had to score way higher and way better than their american MD peers to land the same position. This is in contrast to the >90% of DO students who end up in either an ACGME or AACOM residency.
There are very few legal things a college graduate can do to torpedo their chances at a successful career as a physician more than attending a caribbean medical school.
@iwannabe_Brown
What I was trying to say was that everyone who commented operated in hypothetical terms. Of course it is better to be an american med school graduate, but the OP question was about this particular student.
There was no info provided about this student MCAT scores or GPA.
I suspect that this student had a low MCAT or low GPA, or both. In this case waiting till next year may not change anything at all.
There is no way to make a coherent suggestion in this case, because there is no info provided.
Typing “no” in all cups is not very helpful either, my opinion is still the same: it is better to get an MD, even from the Caribbean, than DO. It is also my husband’s opinion - he is Pediatric Anesthesiologist.
The above-mentioned kid I know, who graduated from Ross had low scores, he would not make a cut to med schools in the US, probably not even to DO schools, but after Ross he finished his IM residency, completed his Cardiology fellowship and is working now.
This may be true for now. But things are changing.
States are considering whether or not to allow Caribbean med schools to continue to buy clerkship slots. Texas, Pennsylvania and Puerto Rico have all banned Caribbean med school from buying clerkship sites and/or sending students to train in public or private hospitals within the state. In 2014 New York placed a moratorium on new contracts between hospitals & Caribbean med schools, is not allowing Caribbean med schools to renew clerkship contracts and appears to be working on pushing Caribbean students out of NY hospitals to make room for students from US schools. Additionally 17 states severely restrict the number of clerkship rotations a international med student can do in the state, meaning a Caribbean students will often have to relocate every 4-6 weeks during their MS3 year, which makes it much more difficult to complete all core clerkship rotations in a timely fashion and to have continuity and consistency of training.
Actually, even though I’ve heard that Caribbean med schools matching rates supposed to slow down significantly, SGU and Ross matching rate has increased annually over the past 5 or so years.While it is true that The Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) announced that beginning in 2023, physicians applying for ECFMG Certification, will be required to graduate from a medical school that has been accredited using criteria comparable to those established for U.S. medical schools by the LCME, so far the NYC the Health and Hospitals Corporation signed a ten-year contract worth up to $100 million from St. George’s University in Grenada. American University of the Caribbean (AUC) on St. Maarten reached a 10-year, $19 million deal with Nassau University Medical Center.
Ross University has agreements with ten teaching hospitals in New York, including St. John’s in Far Rockaway, New York Methodist in Brooklyn and Jamaica Hospital.In total, the New York State Education Department has approved 14 international medical schools, of which seven are located in the Caribbean.
RE: St George’s deal–The Health and Hospital Corp-St George deal was brokered by Dr. Daniel Ricciardi who at the time was a paid member of the faculty at St. George’s (though he never actually taught any classes for the school) AND on Board of Directors at HHC. When the deal became public and his conflict of interest revealed, he was forced to resign from HHC.