Yes and no one on this thread has agreed it was an assault. But that doesn’t stop some from using this unfortunate story to indict a whole generation of women many of whom would have simply walked out like the rest of us.
Let us hope that passive agressive women like Grace are few and far between. After the crap that happened on colleges I am not convinced that while women have certainly grown to feel free to pursue…they have learned to handle themselves but I really hope.
And pursue is very different than what our 1950s mothers did to attract. To think today is like the 50s is absurd and having raised 3 makes I have observed how women operate these days and it isn’t bad unless they can’t handle it. Today’s young women actually pursue certain men and take the lead. But in general I think it is a good idea to start educating what a bad date is vs. harassment or assault. I would say if Aziz is to be branded boorish, Grace would be branded in a less than complementary manner also. If this had been me at 23 my bffs would sit me down and tell me what an idiot I had been and what I should have done to better manage the situation not sit me down and convince me I was a victim.
Generally I assume there is no reason to believe anything written about celebrities and I do not like the fact Grace is anonymous. I feel sorry for both these young people their lives are now being dissected in the media.
Having said that, this wine issue didn’t seem trivial to me at all. I drink red wine. However, whenever I invite people over I offer red or white because that just seems good manners. I also offer non-alcoholic beverage choices. I don’t assume because I like red you do, too. I don’t even assume you drink alcohol. However, if I am a guest in someone’s home and they only offer me white wine, I am not going to tell them I only drink red because that just isn’t how I was raised. I just drink what I am offered or leave it in my glass and drink nothing. Manners are manners, whether offering drinks or behavior in the bedroom (or kitchen countertop) in my humble opinion. For me, that was just one of the many ways to think about this story.
You know she could have easily told him she drinks red and done it in a way that was not rude as those are conversations in the getting to know you phase she apparently skipped. I guarantee you were there a second date he would have had red for her or maybe he had red but she didn’t say anything. They were heading out to eat seafood so white made sense. She missed many opportunities…the wine the most innocuous. The whole thing is so absurd I can’t still wonder if it was a set up.
I interpreted the wine thing as an attempt by Grace to illustrate that Aziz really did not care what she wanted. She was there for one reason and one reason only. I don’t particularly think his only offering her white wine means anything. Perhaps he just didn’t know any different. I noticed the Instagram she posted of the meal from the restaurant showed a glass of white wine. Perhaps he thought that was her preference.
^I agree.
That is a stretch for me when eating a lobster roll. Her attitude was petulant. A bottle of white for the table would be generally accepted practice with seafood. Did she really think he wouldn’t have bought her a glass if red if she had opened her mouth and said something? It was a first date and they didn’t know squat about each other. I had a first date and the guy took me to a very expensive steak house in Back Bay. He ordered for us but I don’t eat red meat, i held up my hand to the waiter, looked the guy in the eye and said oh sorry you don’t know that I don’t eat red meat do you mind if I have the fish. It was not awkward at all. Good grief. The blame is not on Aziz here…he ordered white with seafood…no mistake there. She was immature not to let him know and petulant when she whines about it after the fact.
So Ashleigh Banfield kind of slammed the whole babe article pretty hard:
http://ew.com/tv/2018/01/16/hln-ashleigh-banfield-aziz-ansari-accuser/
“You’re 23. What a gift. Yet you look that gift horse in the mouth and chiseled away at that powerful movement with your public accusation.” She added, “You had an unpleasant date. And you did not leave. That is on you. And all the gains that have been achieved on your behalf and mine are now being compromised by the allegations that you threw out there, and I’m gonna call them reckless and hollow.”
There’s a lot more, you can watch or read the article. But today HLN invited the reporter Katie Way on to the show to discuss with Banfield. This article has Way’s response:
http://www.businessinsider.com/aziz-ansari-writer-email-to-hln-ashleigh-banfield-2018-1
"It’s an unequivocal no from me. The way your colleague Ashleigh (?), someone I’m certain no one under the age of 45 has ever heard of, by the way, ripped into my source directly was one of the lowest, most despicable things I’ve ever seen in my entire life…
I hope the ratings were worth it! I hope the ~500 RTs on the single news write-up made that burgundy lipstick bad highlights second-wave feminist has-been feel really relevant for a little while. She DISGUSTS me, and I hope when she has more distance from the moment she has enough of a conscience left to feel remotely ashamed …"
Wow. Both these women would I am sure call themselves feminists, but boy, they don’t seem to recognize each other, do they?
Doesn’t every movement have what is called a “bomb throwing” stage? Guess this is it.
If Grace were a feminist, wouldn’t she insist on paying for herself on the date? That would immediately put the relationship on even footing, and also gives the female the freedom to order what they want. They could’ve just gone to a cheaper place.
No, the issue of paying is addressed at the end of a meal so it would not help when ordering. Unless of course you want to be rude enough to bring it up while perusing the menu. I always offered to contribute at the end of a meal even when the man had extended the invitation. But usually when men extend a dinner invitation to a nice restaurant they want to pay and refuse your offer.
responding to #729/ crossposted
Personally, I don’t find that a very useful definition of feminism. If anyone, male or female, invites me to dinner in a restaurant, I expect my host to pay. If I invite someone, I insist on paying. My best guess is that Miss Manners agrees with me. I don’t know if she identifies as a feminist. I do.
Since it’s not always a Miss Manners world, I offer to split the bill when it doesn’t seem like that offer might be offensive. And I have friends who say, “let’s eat out and let’s go dutch” and that is clear in advance.
I don’t buy that definition of “feminist” either. I too expect that the person who invites someone out to dinner will pay. I don’t charge people who come to my house for dinner, and I don’t expect to be charged when someone invites me. Similarly, if I offer to take someone out to dinner, I’m the host and I pay; if someone takes me out to dinner, they pay; if we decide to go out to dinner together, usually we split.*
*If you normally go out to lunch with someone, say,or coffee or drinks, and you mostly order similar things, you and your friend should alternate paying instead of splitting. That gives each of you the chance to experience the warm glow of your own generosity, and your friend’s generosity too.
Gotta love Ashleigh Banfield’s anger…I totally get it. Her message is spot on.
The response is as petulant as the original story. Someone please clue these 22 year olds that feminism has nothing to do with public whining about a bad date.
Since this is a college board, I’ll point out that the author of the (poorly written) article is a recent Northwestern journalism school graduate.
So, she’s just rude then. Letting someone else pay for her meal, then complaining about it when she should have said, “Thank you.”
My limited data on norms regarding paying in the supposedly feminist world comes from my two kids. When my son was dating (meeting people online and offline but more online), the expectations was that the man would move to pay, the women would offer to split it, he would decline and pay it. So the “feminist” action was the offer to pay but if the male actually accepted it, that would be a major black mark. This despite the fact that he was a grad student and the dates were also grad students or were working. I think the same kabuki dance went on with my daughter at the beginning of her current relationship. Now when they are together (on weekends), she cooks when they are home and he pays for dinners out. Some of this may come from an expectation that males make more, but it doesn’t feel like equality or feminism to me.
My argument many moons ago was that while Ansari was a bit of a boor, Grace’s big complaint was his not correctly interpreting her non-verbal cues and that this constituted sexual assault. That does not constitute sexual assault. I think there is a legitimate argument that schools have taken to punishing boys for being male (high energy, not sitting still, etd.) I feel the standard of properly understanding non-verbal cues would put a similarly female expectation on dating. I don’t think males are good at that when fully clothed and not aroused. And, finally, if the complaint about Ansari is that he was simply boorish (assuming Grace’s recollection of events are accurate), I don’t see that anonymous character assassination is an acceptable way to handle that. At the very least, if Grace (and those who think this kind of thing should be published to let the world know that Ansari is a boor on dates) are shooting for equality, take responsibility here (as well as on the kitchen counter). Use your name if you are going to use his.
She did not complain about the wine she drank at the restaurant. You need to go back and read the article. She met him at his apartment before they went to dinner and they had a drink there first. She notes she was offered the white wine at that time.
She didn’t complain about the meal, except she felt rushed to leave. She doesn’t bring up the issue of wine at the restaurant, though it is clear from the photos the wine is white.
She complained that when she arrived at his apartment she was only offered white wine. Then they went to the restaurant.
Here is the original article:
https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355
and the pertinent section:
eta: crossposted with a bunch of folks
I’ve been to people’s houses when they only offered white, and I’d rather have red. I didn’t tell them, but I also didn’t tell the world… it just isn’t very important. Even in the context of the story, it seems irrelevant.