<p>MIT has PhD candidates on its football team, but I guess that’s a whole different world, isn’t it?</p>
<p>^^^^ MIT is Division 3. </p>
<p>But being MIT, it’s possible they’re actually in a different dimension, using some fancy-schmancy device they created in their engineering labs… (cue twilight zone music)</p>
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<p>But have Notre Dame and Stanford really had respectable teams in recent years? Certainly not by Alabama’s standards.</p>
<p>“The NCAA officially limits student-athletes to 20 hours per week of sports-related activities. There are plenty of kids who work that many hours at part-time jobs, and do fine in school.”</p>
<p>Do you actually know anyone who has been a recruited athlete in a big time football or basketball program? If so, you would understand that there is no comparison between having a part-time job and the actual demands that are placed on these kids (whatever the formal limitations imposed by the NCAA.</p>
<p>But there is also another factor at work here. In general (although not universally) the athletes participating in these programs come in with far weaker academic credentials than the student body at large. Add that to the extra physical and mental demands that are placed on them, and many will need all the help that they can get to survive in the classroom</p>
<p>The question about whether the schools should admit student-athletes with lower academic profiles has been beaten to death on a number of other threads. The point is that once the school has decided to admit them, it is morally obligated to provide the support necessary to give them a decent chance to succeed.</p>
<p>Agree with Emm1. In addition to NCAA-limited official practices, there are training expectations of the student which sometimes fall outside those 20 hours. Think “captain’s practices,” and “optional” cross training. Those of us with high school athletes see this happen all the time already. Due to travel obligations, college athletes will miss class for games and will lose out on weekend time other kids can use to catch up on sleep or do laundry, etc. By the way, doing an athlete’s laundry is a part-time job in itself! I understand that some programs wash practice clothes and uniforms for the student but many others don’t and so the responsibility will fall on the student. Also, lots of college students get by on 4-5 hours sleep, which expands their time to do homework or engage in social activities. An elite athlete needs more sleep than that to perform at an optimal level.</p>
<p>Emm and GFG,
All of your comments are on the mark, but don’t forget that many of the student-athletes at the scholarship Div I schools arrange their schedules in such a fashion that comparisons to other schools are often inappropriate. The student-athletes in major sports at the true Division I athletic colleges will often stretch out their academic obligations and take fewer class hours per semester, particularly during their season. Also, some will take a redshirt year and most will spend at least one summer term at their college. As a result, the rarity is the student-athlete who actually completes his academic requirements in the standard four-year period.</p>
<p>I want to also give a shout-out to those Div I colleges that compete at the highest levels academically AND athletically and which, despite the onerous demands of their sports and the quality of their competition, their student-athletes mostly stay on track to graduate at a truly impressive rate. The NCAA data that measures this, the Graduation Success Rate (GSR), is presented below for these top academic AND athletic colleges.</p>
<p>FOOTBALL Graduation Success Rates</p>
<p>67% All Division I</p>
<p>95% Georgetown
94% Notre Dame
93% Stanford
92% Duke
92% Northwestern
91% Vanderbilt
83% Wake Forest
82% Rice
78% U NORTH CAROLINA
70% U MICHIGAN
66% U VIRGINIA
62% UCLA
54% USC
53% UC BERKELEY</p>
<p>MENS BASKETBALL Graduation Success Rates</p>
<p>62% All Division I</p>
<p>100% Notre Dame
100% Wake Forest
90% Northwestern
89% Duke
86% U NORTH CAROLINA
83% Rice
80% Vanderbilt
70% Georgetown
67% Stanford
55% U VIRGINIA
46% UCLA
46% U MICHIGAN
37% USC
30% UC BERKELEY</p>
<p>BASEBALL Graduation Success Rates</p>
<p>68% All Division I</p>
<p>100% Stanford
100% Northwestern
100% Vanderbilt
100% Notre Dame
94% Duke
94% Georgetown
92% Rice
91% U VIRGINIA
90% Wake Forest
89% U MICHIGAN
84% UC BERKELEY
79% U NORTH CAROLINA
71% UCLA
36% USC</p>
<p>WOMEN’S BASKETBALL Graduation Success Rates</p>
<p>82% All Division I</p>
<p>100% Stanford
100% Northwestern
100% Rice
100% Vanderbilt
100% Notre Dame
100% Wake Forest
100% UCLA
93% Georgetown
90% Duke
90% U NORTH CAROLINA
85% U MICHIGAN
71% UC BERKELEY
71% U VIRGINIA
69% USC</p>
<p>The worst stories come from basketball, which covers both academic semesters and most often draws kids from weak academic backgrounds. </p>
<p>From what I saw, the Ivy and Patriot Leagues are a large step above the big money programs in integrity, but even they bend their admission standards very substantially in basketball and football. Harvard had a basketball admissions scandal last year and Princeton had a star basketball player with an SAT of 742/1600.</p>
<p>I’m curious what these student athletes major in that graduate in four years. For me, playing a sport in college is all about getting an education. Is there data that breaks down graduation rates and major? Obviously, I’m asking because some majors are more demanding than others, i.e., engineering or science where there are labs, etc. I’ve been told some of the top universities listed steer the athlete into certain majors so that their studies won’t interfere with their ability to practice/play/train. Physical demands are tremendous for these D1 athletes, much more than just holding down a part time job.</p>
<p>I don’t think Ivy or Patriot league schools have majors like “General Studies.” I know my Patriot League Alma Mater doesn’t. I think these kids major in real subjects.</p>
<p>“From what I saw, the Ivy and Patriot Leagues are a large step above the big money programs in integrity.”</p>
<p>This is the standard narrative, but it strikes me as vastly oversimplified. By and large, the Ivies and to a lesser extent the Patriot League get the relatively “easy” kids in basketball–the ones who have relatively strong academic backgrounds The implication is that the inner city kids who don’t have this background should just be written off. Basketball can give some of these kids one more chance to get out, get a degree and have a reasonable chance at economic success.</p>
<p>Are there some college coaches who don’t care about the academics of their players? Absolutely. But there are also the Jonhn Chaney’s of the world who cared passionately about saving kids from the inner city. Did he save all of the players that he recruited? Not by a long shot. But he saved some, and that’s a whole lot better than none.</p>
<p>It is a myth that division one athletes do not attend school full time during their season of sport, especially BB players who, as mentioned above, have a sport that encroaches on two semesters/quarters. All D-I athletes have to have a full time class load to be eligible. The NCAA also checks every semester to make sure they are “making progress towards degree.” That means they can’t just load up on easy classes unrelated to their declared major… they have to show that they are on track to earn their degree or they will be ineligible to participate in their sport. Say the students at Acme University generally take 5 classes per semester, but due to schedule conflicts and workload, the athletes take 4 classes per semester. How do they catch up? They “volunteer” to attend summer school and once they “happen” to be on campus, they then “volunteer” to participate in conditioning, training, and other non-coached development to improve their athletic performance. 20 hours a week, 51 weeks a year, does not even come close to the actual amount of hours that many D-I athletes are required to put in. If you want to compare it to students who are working at the local coffee hut while attending college, it would be more appropriate to compare the hours with someone holding a 40 hour a week job that requires travel, communication with the media, attendance at social events (university/alumni/other), and more. As to the above post, while some college coaches generally care if their students get a degree, most did not care too much until the APR penalties kicked in a year or two ago. Once they had to report their APR and stood to lose scholarships and play-off spots, the coaches developed a concern that had previously been found lacking. Many employers know the demands college athletes at all levels deal with and that is why they love to hire them upon graduation.</p>
<p>Bessie and EMM1, note this NBC summary of last year’s 65 NCAA basketball tournament teams:</p>
<p>"The study also found that fewer tournament teams have failing Academic Progress Rates than last year. Twenty-one of the 65 tournament teams have APR scores under 925, the cutoff below which the NCAA can penalize schools. Last year, 35 teams had APR scores below 925. </p>
<p>Graduation rates remained similar to last year. Forty of the teams had graduation rates of at least 50 percent. </p>
<p>The graduation rates were based on whether freshmen who entered school between the 1998-99 and 2001-02 school years earned diplomas within six years. </p>
<p>Seven teams had a 100 percent graduation rate: Binghamton, Florida State, Marquette, Robert Morris, Utah State, Wake Forest and Western Kentucky. </p>
<p>The five lowest rates were at Cal State Northridge (8 percent), Maryland (10 percent), Portland State (17 percent), Arizona (20 percent) and Clemson (29 percent). </p>
<p>The study noted the ongoing gaps between the graduation rates of white and African-American players. Twenty-five tournament teams had a gap of 20 percentage points or more between the two groups. "</p>
<p>Black students having graduation rates 20% or more below white students at 40% of the teams shows there are not enough John Chayney-type coaches. One third of the teams not meeting the NCAA’s lenient standards (down from over 50% the prior year) for progress and not having 6 year graduation rates of 50% shows these kids are not taking full course loads in many cases.
Sadly, Binghamton, one of the bright spots in that report with a 100% graduation rate, just dismissed over half its players in a scandal, with a professor raising charges of academic fraud.</p>
<p>As for what courses these kids take outside the tough Patriot and Ivy leagues (and other schools with integrity), some examples include Auburn, where a professor found that over 100 athletes took “independent study” with a single professor, while the norm per professor was less than a dozen; Minnesota, which admitted to paying imposters to take exams for players; Memphis, which just got caught with a star player becoming eligible only because his SAT was taken by someone else (with Memphis not wondering why a Chicago player’s second test results soared when the exam was taken in Detroit); Michigan, where football players charged universal violating of the 20 hours per academic week and offseason limits; and Ohio State, where star Greg Oden was profiled in Sports Illustrated with a courseload of 2 subjects. Players often major in Pysical Education; Recreation Management and other obvious easy classes, in many cases receiving credit for courses such as Theory of Basketball, taught by a coach (and consider how far an A goes to keeping them eligible).</p>
<p>These kids are very often horribly exploited by schools which make millions off them. A scholarship should be a ticket out of poverty, but if a school as otherwise reputable as Maryland has a 6 year graduation rate of 10%, it is a ticket to nowhere.</p>
<p>Bessie, you list the many ways in which bigtime college athletes have to work hard at their sport. They practice, they do conditioning, they travel, they have to be available to the media, they have to attend various social events with donors. </p>
<p>I say, so what? If they can’t be students because they don’t have time to be students, then they shouldn’t be at college. Colleges should not be in the business of running minor league sports teams. It is not a defense to say that college athletes are too busy to study-- that is an indictment of bigtime college sports, not a defense.</p>
<p>Bessie, you’re repeating exactly what I’ve previously been told. My concern comes as a parent who wonders how mere mortals are expected to handle D1 athletics as well as stay focused on academics of the athlete’s choosing. Seems to me steering athletes into the easier majors is short-sighted not to mention cruel (given our current job market). It just occurred to me if my D goes this route, she may never have the time to come home again even for a short visit.</p>
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<p>Are you implying that these athletes would have been better off not accepting the scholarship opportunity? </p>
<p>I agree that it would be ideal for all college athletes to graduate, but its not like they are wasting their time participating in Div. 1 sports. They are offered incredible opportunities and experiences they would never have had if they had tried to escape from poverty without college sports. They’ve got the rest of their lives to finish their degree, if they are so inclined.</p>
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<p>So what’s wrong with giving them those opportunities and experiences and allowing them to finish their degrees by placing actual, not pretend, limits on the time they are allowed to spend on sports? You speak as though education is somehow beside the point, but it’s not. It’s a college’s primary function. If its primary function were to entertain sports fans, then maybe the cavalier attitude toward whether the athletes graduate or not would be appropriate.</p>
<p>Agree with you mantori. Not to mention, when that athletic experience doesn’t turn into a professional career, what happens to the college athlete with little in the way of job preparation. If college students, whether they are athletes or not don’t take studies seriously, the path to a successful future takes a hard hit . . . no pun intended.</p>
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<p>Typically, athletes are given “first priority” for class registration, since their practice schedules must be accomodated. </p>
<p>I’ve never heard of a “General Studies” major…what is that? Is that some kind of Liberal Arts degree? Which colleges offer that? </p>
<p>When I’ve heard Alabama talk about the majors of their football players, I hear a lot of finance, business, education, accounting, and other majors that probably don’t require a lot lab classes. However, I have heard of a few athletes who are math, biology, and pre-health majors (not many). </p>
<p>I think many try to take their most demanding classes during the semester that their sport is “off season”. Obviously, that’s won’t work for basketball players.</p>
<p>“Not to mention, when that athletic experience doesn’t turn into a professional career, what happens to the college athlete with little in the way of job preparation.”</p>
<p>Seems to me you have a very narrow definition of job preparation. Playing college athletics at any level–let alone a high Division I level–may not sharpen academic skills, but it is better job preparation than a dozen majors that I can think of off the top of my head.</p>
<p>But in any event, the situation is a lot more complicated than the simplistic posts above would have us believe. Let’s take basketball as an example. Most of the players recruited at the 50 or so top schools see college basketball as a vehicle to take their shot at becoming the 15 or so out of 150 in their class to make the NBA, or failing that the addition 20 or so who can make decent money in other professional leagues. Most of them will fail, but even among that group, the good students will still get degrees, and even some of those who might otherwise not have gone to college will also succeed.</p>
<p>But even among Division I players, the vast majority see sports as a way to pay for college and in some cases to get a shot at college that their backgrounds might otherwise have denied them. I know a number of boys like this personally. I’m thinking in particular of one inner city kid I know (call him Jim) who positively burns to succeed, but came out of high school with almost no academic skills at all. He was working at UPS, then tried prep school on scholarship first. That didn’t work out so he went to junior college in the boonies on scholarship and has now won an athletic scholarship to play DI at a second level state school. Trust me, the school is not making any money off of their basketball program.</p>
<p>Now I’m not at all sure that Jim has the academic skills to graduate. But at least he has a chance now. And you know something? If he graduates at the bottom of his class, any employer with any brains would hire him ahead of people in the upper third. You know why? Jim has demonstrated that he knows what it takes to really excel at something–in his case, basketball. And that’s worth a lot more than a B+ in some mundane art history course.</p>
<p>Sorry, mom2collegekids, but at my Patriot League alma mater I have not heard of athletes being given priority in scheduling. S is not an athlete but his roommate is; they both registered at the same time for classes. Registration done in a narrow time slot online, and is strictly first-come, first-serve. (Literally, the kids are sitting at their computers waiting for the clock to tick over so they can sign in and register. The time slot for seniors is first, then juniors, etc.). A couple years ago I met some football parents who were concerned because a professor in a gov’t class had arranged for an overnight field trip via bus to Wash DC for an inside view of some committee hearings for his students - and the field trip took place the week before the biggest rivalry football game of the year. There were 3 football players in the class. The parents were hoping their kids could shorten the trip and come back via plane after one day, instead of missing 2 days of practice. The football coach took the matter all the way to the dean, who said students are students first - they are not excused from the field trip. So these 3 players missed 2 days of practice right before the biggest game of the year. </p>
<p>I’ve seen “General Studies” listed as a major when watching big-time college football games on TV many times. But no such major exists at the Ivies or Patriot League schools. I doubt it exists at many Division 3 schools either. It’s really the big-time, big-money sports where the notorious abuses occur.</p>