Good luck. The process is at times opaque and frustrating, we have all been there. I will tell you that even though there were frustrating days with the athletic recruiting, I have done this both ways. Definitely you are in a better position as an athlete.
I don’t have the details of your athlete’s sport or what schools you are talking to, so some of what I say won’t apply. But I have a few general comments about what could be going on.
The coach could be asking to see if he/she can get you in without burning a slot instead of a tip (at a NESCAC school anyway, all schools do not follow the same format). It could also be for potential scholarship purposes. Also could be just for the coach’s information for another datapoint on whether your athlete can handle the workload. I am friends with a coach who has recruited kids who end up missing practice and competition because they are struggling with the academics. He gets really aggravated when that happens. A test score will be an indication of whether that is a problem or not. Bringing a kid to a school over his/her head doesn’t do anyone any favors.
Just because the coach wants to see the scores doesn’t mean they will be submitted. Way back in the dark ages when only a few schools were TO (2019) I know at least one coach told us he needed to see them, but would make a decision on whether we would submit or not. After S was admitted, he said he would need to turn in the score even if admissions wasn’t shown the number until after S was admitted.
I do think that they realize an early score isn’t necessarily a best score. S was initially below where a couple of coaches wanted him, but he was close enough they didn’t drop him, just encouraged him to try to get another point or 2 on his ACT. I have also seen kids with consideraby lower scores basically get told “I need you to get X points, or there isn’t really any point in wasting each other’s time” and then the conversation stops until the kid is able to get in the ballpark of required numbers.
Athletes don’t necessarily need the same academic resume as a NARP (normal average regular person). Although how close they need to be can vary quite a bit from sport to sport and also from athlete to athlete. As on Ivy coach told me “first year starter, 27 is fine. Developmental guy who may never leave the practice room? I probably need a 34. Everyone else is somewhere in-between.” S developed pretty well athletically his last couple years of HS. He is well below the 25% ACT # at his school. So it can definitely help.
Just a few things to think about. It’s a stressful process, good luck. If there is any specific help you need, just ask. I have found the athletic recruits section to be very giving of their time and expertise. Many of us with kids who have gone through the process owe a debt to people we can’t repay, so we try to help those following us instead.
This is so helpful. My son is a competitive swimmer and is looking at NESCAC schools for the most part, one school in LL and one in Centennial Conference. Most of the schools he is looking at he would be one of the faster swimmers on the team (in some cases the fastest). His number one choice, at least at this point, is the one reach. Others he has a shot to get in even without swim. He is essentially a straight A/A- student in all honors/AP classes. His ACT score of 28 is on the lower end of his favorite target school. Just frustrating that so much emphasis is placed on it when you have 3 years of data in a challenging curriculum. In any case, we are still early in process and have a long way to go. I really appreciate your thoughts and may take you up on your offer for advice as we progress in process. Have a great holiday season!
@Ctjrparent there’s a huge benefit in being an athletic recruit, even though the athlete has to have grades/scores in the range of the general applicant pool. When a school rejects 80% of its applicants, most of which are qualified to attend, there’s tremendous benefit in knowing your student will be admitted.
It can be frustrating when TO schools/coaches still want scores from recruited athletes, unfortunately that is happening a lot this year (for 2021s).
I don’t think you will see the TO schools who currently want a test score change this practice…so, I would have your son focus on getting his ACT score up, and/or trying the SAT (some kids do better on one or the other). If a private test tutor is in the budget, I would do that. Is your son a junior?
Many academic D3’s “band” their athletic recruits. They have fewer slots for lower band recruits. The Ivies (other than for football, where they use a band system as well) use an academic index. The AI calculates a numeric score based on test scores and GPA. The academic D3’s similarly rank the academic standing of each recruit in order to determine the band that they are in for that school. As a general rule, you always want to maximize the band/AI for your kid as he/she will be an easier sell for the coach with the AO. There are situations (and there is a long thread about “Beware of Soft Support” on this site) where a coach may take a chance with a top band kid and only offer a “tip” vs a “slot” in the hopes that the recruit will be admitted without using a precious limited slot. In those situations, it is more likely than not though that the recruit is not at the very top of the list because the coach is taking a risk that the recruit will be rejected.
As mentioned above, the athletic hook is one of the strongest ones out there for highly selective schools. While your kid may be right at or even above the “median” in gpa/rank/test scores for a selective school, chances for admissions with a slot are often well over 90%. Without one, your kid is in the same pile as all of the other equally qualified applicants vying for very limited acceptances. This is also often the only realistic path for kids that are well below the median unless they have some other major hook (URM, donor, first gen, low SES).
My S21 was recruited by 2 selective NESCAC schools. Both schools are TO, but one did ask for his test scores. We speculated that they wanted to be sure he could handle the academics there. Both schools’ coaches gave him the same message that he would be a student first and an athlete second.
yeah, but I mean I just don’t get why they value a certain score so much on the ACT. I feel like if a kid has straight A/A- in school in honors/AP classes that is adequate demonstration he/she can handle the work. And I laugh at all these LAC that say they have a holistic process and scores aren’t as important as people think (then they say every admitted student is in the top 3% of test takers).
[quote=“Ctjrparent, post:82, topic:2096274”]
“Most of the schools he is looking at he would be one of the faster swimmers on the team (in some cases the fastest).” [/quote]
If your son has swim meets this winter, the coach will ask him about his times. Just like the test scores, it is optional whether your son shares that information or asks the coach to accept that he finished first at the last dual meet. Since the Coach knows your son took a standardized test, it is not unreasonable to ask for that data point.
This might be totally irrelevant for your situation, but A/A- in honors/AP can mean very different things at different schools. Unless yours is a feeder for the college AND the coach knows it, they don’t necessarily know what that means. There are certainly schools where standard classes and a B+ average denotes a far better student than an A student with a schedule full of AP’s in a less rigorous HS. Heck, I had a 3.75 college GPA (with several honors classes at a State Flagship U!) and when I went to a tippy top law school I got absolutely pummeled, whereas my classmates with lower GPA’s from Ivy and similar schools handled everything just fine. Grades only have meaning in context.
Sidenote: I hate with a passion the SAT/ACT emphasis. This isn’t sour grapes, I went to college for free and got into a top law school because of high standardized test scores. I think they are very good at showing who has the time, money and family support to prep properly, and pretty good at showing who has a natural knack for taking multiple choice tests, a worthless skill. Otherwise their value is limited.
My son ended up athletically more suited for D1 so we didn’t complete the process with any NESCAC’s, although we started with a couple of them. They have a reputation for being “good athlete, great student” whereas the Ivies are more “good student, great athlete”. Based on our limited experience we found that to be true. S would have been in the hunt for a D3 national title as a freshman, but was still given a higher ACT target from Williams than he got from Princeton or any other Ivy. The other coaches came down when he started having more national tournament sucess. We never asked the Williams coach if he could flex down because at that point S pretty much decided he wanted to pursue the D1 route.
Here’s some good news. If your S is at or near the top, the coaches are going to do everything in their power to get him in. They have some academic limitations but ultimately they don’t get raises and better offers from other schools because they recruited 3 Rhodes Scholars. They get judged on wins. Period. The academics are just a hurdle. Once they can get you over that hurdle, it isn’t an issue. I don’t know exactly know how TO is working in the post-COVID world. But my hunch is that the coach is wanting the scores to best strategize for how to get him in. If the score hurts, unless the coach has some obligation to pass it on he will just sit on it. However, if he can improve enough that the coach can get him on a tip he will probably take advantage of that opportunity to recruit a better teammate. For my son, he was the better teammate. He brought the average down not up.
I don’t always watch the athletic boards closely (working on 2 non-athletes right now, one for prep school and one for college), but for anyone who wants my opinion just be sure to tag me. If I don’t reply in a day or 2 send a PM, I haven’t really gotten the new system figured out yet. Especially if anyone wants wrestling recruit advice, there aren’t many others who post regularly who have gone through high academic wrestling recruiting recently. Like every sport, it has a lot of similarities but also a few quirks.
don’t agree IMO a bit disingenuous when schools have been very vocal about test optional truly being test optional. if a student doesn’t think it represents their ability as a student then don’t send is the common statement.
That’s usually my first bit of advice to every question. You may think a question about grades or admittance or where your S/D stands on the list or if he/she is being considered for a scholarship is awkward. It is, but it is also the 3rd time this week the coach has been asked the same question. They expect it.
I will say, I tried to have S ask most of the questions. Not gonna lie, that was really hard for this dad. But questions about admittance and finances fell to me. I think in those areas the coaches see it as appropriate. Every year someone posts about thinking they had support when they really didn’t. You have to ask, and not rely on a 17 year old who hears what he/she wants to hear.
I probably did some self censoring, but I never asked a coach a question that they seemed put off by. I didn’t ask about things that should be S’s issues. But money, admittance and where he stood on the list, academic support, an unfortunate well publicized discipline issue on a team were all things I asked about.
I wouldn’t play 20 questions with a coach when things are preliminary. But I think a question or 2 is fine. Once he starts getting more serious, I actually had pretty involved conversations with a few of his top choices. All were coach initiated, at that point I felt like they were giving me permission to ask about whatever. I did still try to respect boundaries though. One thing I think they were checking out was whether I was going to be a PITA parent. So I asked what I needed to know and chatted with them, but didn’t get into anything where they might think I was going to complain about training or starting positions for example.
100% Agreement . . . I even started some conversations with “I’ve got to be the bad guy now, to make sure we don’t have a misunderstanding.” None of those questions related to the sport.
One coach (where he ended up) was actually literally LOL at me. I was not expecting an offer that early (or from that program at all frankly). So I asked him about 5 different ways if he really meant that S had an offer or if I was minunderstanding it.
I can’t quote on my phone; but @Ctjrparent I wouldn’t worry too much about the score. My son was able to take the SAT after sophomore year, and he didn’t get an amazing score. It was in the bottom 25% of most schools he was looking at. Every coach asked for the score. And his score was submitted with every preread, and he passed all of them. Interestingly, his score was not submitted with his actual ED application, even though clearly the AO has seen it.
With a handful of exceptions (where it is impossible), a D-3 coach wants to get 100% of the athletes he ultimately recruits admitted. If the coach wants your son as an athlete, I would expect the coach will use his knowledge and experience to give advice about getting in. In order for a coach to advise whether your son should submit test scores, the coach needs to know the test scores.
If an early test score causes a coach to lose interest in a HS Junior, that is a HUGE advantage over visiting, falling in love with a reach school, writing application essays and then waiting until March of Senior year to get an admissions decision. The payoff for working with coaches now comes in the Autumn of Senior year, when your son applies to no more than 3 or 4 colleges (instead of 10) because he knows where he fits as a student and an athlete.
With a HS Junior, you are early in the process. Hang in there . . . it pays off.
Thanks KaiserS. All makes sense. I think part of my angst is that he really wants to do ED admission which is closer than it seems (especially since Covid has made it hard to visit schools). And frankly, when you look at admission stats at the more selective LAC, if you can pick a favorite it really benefits you as admission rate is much higher with ED. Will be a rollercoaster for sure. Thank goodness for wine. lol