@seniorstruggling, Haverford in particular seems to have this pattern. This hardly ever happens at other similar schools. I doubt this kid’s essays were the problem.
The point is not that there is a problem with Haverford admissions or any of the kids’ applications; the problem is that the coach is being less than honest about the meaning of the admission pre-review (I’d say lying, but we’ll give him the technical “no actual guarantee” slack). If the coach came out and said “your kid is in the ballpark, but there is a chance that he may be declined,” then folks can make an informed decision. They are deliberately misleading kids about their chances so that they won’t choose other schools. None of these kids are subpar, which is why they believe a coach who says “admissions says you’re good, go ahead and apply ED.”
The coach knows that the kids will be giving up opportunities elsewhere and it’s incredibly unethical to not fully disclose the fact that many recruits are rejected. It’s not about “how dare Haverford reject my child,” it’s “how dare that coach strongly imply this was a done deal and we should abandon all other offers.” I’m very relieved that my son is too small (and not quite fast enough to make up for it) to have any chance of playing varsity sports. He’ll be happy with club and intramurals. The whole recruiting process is too stressful and the coaches are too manipulative (based on their experiences of a couple of son’s teammates).
This situation has been reported multiple times in this thread and at Laxpower. Other coaches know about it. A body of evidence is growing and the situation continues.
“The ED is a middle class family’s only chance at a top school”. Not really, there’s academics too. If you have the scores, there’s plenty of schools that’ll make it happen. Haverford doesn’t have merit but many of the top schools consider “middle income” to be quite low when it comes to need-based aid. Take a look at what Amherst and Midd consider for need-based grants.
yes, it’s Haverford. I can’t say categorically no other D3 does it, but Haverford is the one that keeps coming up.
@“Brother Ray 24” that’s how elite D3 recruiting works. even those schools, especially, but not only, the NESCACs, take their sports seriously and to compete they go looking for kids who can play and who can hang academically.
it doesn’t have the power that D1 has, but no matter what anyone else tells you, trust me, I’m on my third tour and it helps a lot.
even for every elite students, admission to these schools is not a promise. but if you have the numbers, the coach wants you on his / her list and you apply ED (that’s the consideration you give for using up a spot on the list), then you should expect to get in. Once in a while something gets screwed up, but after a clean pre-read it’s something you’re justified in counting on.
it’s the analog to the Ivy League “likely letter.” Same thing.
Where your premise goes off the track is the idea that D1 is the only place that athletic expression matters or should matter. Not the case. It varies by sport, but D3 can be very competitive. There are a lot of D1 bodies out there who are smart enough to realize that their education is what matters most, and many of those kids are attracted to high end D3 schools so that they can do both.
Does anyone know of this problem occurring with other sports? Junior D is being recruited, is very interested in Haverford and had planned on applying ED, but know I worry it may be a mistake. She is a good but not great student, so I could certainly see this happening to her if it’s a pattern in the entire athletic department.
As someone that got misled by the Head Lacrosse coach with my son, I’ve looked at this quite a bit. I also spoke with the previous Head Lacrosse coach, Murphy when this happened. It seems Haverford Admissions works different from most Div 3 schools and they really don’t reserve a place for individual athletes, even if the admissions pre-read is possible. It really allows the entire school to take a free ride on the system of ED for athletes, without committing like other Div 3 schools, at the expense the 17 year old student athletes that could have gotten a positive pre-read at another div 3 school that actually means something. The school is obviously aware of this and doesn’t seem to care. However, from my personal observations after my son, and I now have a non athlete daughter that is attending Haverford, I think some coaches explain the situation that is unique to Haverford, and some pretend, like Bathory, that they are like all the other Div 3 schools as what an admissions pre-read means. Obviously, the athletic director is aware of this and makes no effort to correct this misconception. I know this cause I personally spoke with her. I had two sons recruited at Swathmore as well, and while the Haverford coach said “your son is in”, the Swathmore coach conveyed much more that “we’d love your son, but I cant guarantee anything”. He said he needs to meet the minimum academic requirements (he did), but we cant really guarantee anything. While we were misled and applied ot Haverford, I felt Gress at Swathmore was much more honest about what he could or cant do. My understanding is that Swathmore and Haverford are the two places where athletics cant get you a lock, unlike a Washington and Lee, Skidmore, Welesley, Vassar, etc, where is a coach says "admissions says to apply and they will look favorably upon your ED application, 99% of those kids get in. Swathmore and Haverford cant do that, the only difference being that the Swathmore coaches are more honest than the Haverford coaches, esp more in Men’s Lacrosse.
I am not familiar with this coach or the athletics dept., but I wonder if the ultra-small size – 1,194 students – makes admissions even more unreliable for athletes. Even most small LACs are in the 1,800-2,000 range, which gives them more admissions offers to make. With only 47% males, Haverford has about 561 males. That’s about 140 incoming males per class. There are 10 men’s sports (9 if you combine indoor and outdoor track/field). Forget about “slots,” how many “tips” can admissions really give per sport with so few students? So I think it’s buyer beware, regardless of what the coach says. Now, if the coach is making affirmative representations that a kid is “in” or “99% in,” and those representations are not accurate on a fairly regular basis, then the coach is not being honest. The coach should either be more honest or coach at a school where admissions for athletes are more predictable.
[After posting, realized that I duplicated the gist of a post from February, which also has some ED #s]
Swathmore has 1450 students. They handle it well and with integrity.
I think @TheGFG 's post is an perfect example of this situation.
Haverford admits 1 out of every 6 kids. The odds are against everyone. The kids who go there aren’t good students…they’re exceptional students. They can kick or dribble or hit a ball…fantastic, but it’s not enough to get you in no matter how good you are at it. It’s D3.
Parents and students want to believe that sports will open a door that other kids don’t have. At other D3 schools in the colonial conference…maybe, but not at Swat or Haverford.
Coaching at Haverford has to be incredibly frustrating. I’m sure they might be more positive than they should be, because they want as many chances as possible to get kids who can help. If your kid isn’t a valedictorian with great SAT’s, outstanding recommendations from teachers who know them personally, and proven examples of leadership and service, a sport most likely isn’t going to carry the day.
@the GFG, we are in the same boat. My D is the second one of my kids to go through this. She’s a a good but not great student, and recruiting will most certainly play a part in whatever school she attends.
I’ve been scared off of Haverford. We keep the discussion alive because a lot can happen between now and next fall, and you never know, but based on everything I read and hear, it is very unlikely my kid will roll the ED dice on Haverford.
@EyeVeee , it’s clear you don’t understand D3 athletic recruiting.
Of course, none of these schools will admit anyone who couldn’t “technically” be admitted w/o athletic consideration. That’s not the point though. The point is, even if you’re in that range, the odds are you won’t get in because it’s very competitive.
You add sports, and the story changes. It REALLY changes.
There is a well-known article in the NY Times about Bowdoin admitting a kid with a 3.4 GPA. High priority athletic recruit. Coach got him in. I think that’s an extreme example, but then again, maybe it’s not.
Everyone knows Williams admits kids who would not likely have been admitted ‘but for’ the recruiting. That means most others do it too. Doesn’t mean those kids are stupid or even that they’re not exceptional. It just means that they probably wouldn’t have beaten the odds without ED and sports.
That Swat and Haverford don’t it is what makes this a topic of discussion. The point is that Swat is up front about it; Haverford, at least in one sport, apparently is not.
Why does it matter? Because a kid has one, and only one, ED bullet to fire.
When we visited two other schools in the same conference, though, we received clearer and more specific information about how the recruiting process works and approximately how low they’ll go SAT/ACT score-wise for a top athlete. In addition, one coach used an example in his talk of what he considered to be a top athlete for his program (something much easier to do with track than with a sport like lacrosse). As a result, I feel we have a good sense of how D would stack up at those schools. Not so at Haverford. Frankly, we really loved Haverford but due to this issue we would have crossed it off the list if it weren’t for their superior financial aid. If D were to attend Haverford instead of her other top choices, we’d save about $25,000 for the 4 years. Also, it’s a higher-ranked school.
So, I’m considering ED at Haverford and if that fails, then ED2 at her second choice. That wouldn’t work with other sports that have more defined positions, but I think it’s not as risky with an xc / track runner who does 4 different events Thoughts?
@MiddleburyDad2…do sports help you get in, sure. Just like playing flute and being from North Dakota help. If you’re child is of similar athletic talent to another student with more hooks…they’re going to fall on the list.
The larger the school, the longer the list, the better the chance that a singular hook works (obviously assuming the academics are comparable). Bowdoin and Williams have longer lists.
Should the coach / coaches at Haverford be more honest / less enthusiastic…it appears so. ED is always about reaching versus over-reaching…athletes are no different.
@EyeVeee, no, not like playing the flute, unless you are being recruited by Oberlin because you are a flute prodigy, and not like being from North Dakota. Sports is more powerful than that.
The coaches have a list, they have people in admissions with whom they work closely, and a good pre-read from one of them, coupled with coach support, leads to a much, much higher admission rate than has the general population, even with other hooks. Sports is a bigger deal than being from North Dakota and, in most cases, playing the flute well. These schools pour a lot of $$ into their sports programs and, while not to the extent of an SEC school, do get pressure from their alumni. “When are you going to beat Williams?” was the question asked among Wes alumni for years before Wes got their football act together. At Middlebury, where I have a kid, athletic recruiting is very real and very big, especially for the skiers.
I don’t disagree with your comment about ED except the “athletes are no different” part. It’s simply, and patently, incorrect at most D3 schools, especially NESCACs and other D3 schools that are competitive on the field of play. Athletes are quite different.
Williams and Bowdoin have longer lists than who? I don’t understand that comment. The NESCAC schools have established a conference-wide set of recruiting rules that they all live by.
The only point here is that Haverford, and apparently Swat, are exceptions to athletic recruiting, and, frankly, I don’t really believe that athletic recruiting doesn’t significantly boost your chances at those schools too. We are not in contact with Swat, but the Haverford coach is recruiting my daughter and went through the same pitch with us as the other schools did. There is a list and there is a pre-read process. Perhaps theirs just isn’t well organized or functional. Don’t know.
@MiddleburyDad2 I agree with your comments in general, I just feel that Haverford cares a bit less about the coaches list than pretty much any other school…period. If you don’t think North Dakota or the flute have pull at a place like Haverford, we could type all night without much progress.
If my kid was applying ED and could pick one attribute…Being the 6th mid-fielder on the soccer team, the third goalie on the field hockey team, or the only kid at school from North Dakota…I’ll take being from N.D. If I’m a goalie and they have none right now on the lacrosse team, I’ll give back my ND residency. A lot of it is supply and demand…and in general supply is unlimited and inconceivably competitive, and demand varies.
The coaches have lists…admissions owns the votes. At haverford, you need consensus among the admissions staff to make it through, and I think it’s harder to build consensus with athletics as a hook round after round during the admissions process. First generation, diversity, special talents begin to stand out more and more…round after round. I feel that diversity with such a small class is THE factor, and the school feels they can fill out the athletic spots in RD. My opinion.
MiddleburyDad2 said it pretty well.
SATs in the low 700s mean nothing without a sports, or other, hook at these types of colleges. I used to roll my eyes at jocks. Now I tape their ankles and pray they make into 12 grade without serious injury. Very thankful for ED and the sports hook.
Saturday’s game should be close one.
@EyeVeee , ok, as it relates to Haverford, I yield to your better knowledge. I"m on the outside looking in there.
What I’ve found at other schools, however, is that if you have the hook of sports, then the adcom spends more time and energy looking at your app for other institutional need boxes that you can check off. In other words, if we know we want him to help fill a hole that’s upcoming on our back line, then let’s see what else we can find to help get him in. Oh look! He’s from North Dakota! That’s nice. We don’t get a lot of those. Diversity, check. Oh, look, his parents are Cuban! Great, that helps too. And he attended a public high school. We need more of those. Half this place is filled with ____ Country Day School kids.
Sure, those things can help on their own, but my experience is that their relevance gets magnified when there’s an overwhelming hook like sports at play. Of course, there are other big hooks. Child of big donating alumni, etc. But sports at most schools is a big one.
The issue it seems really is not with the process at Haverford but with the way it is being expressed to recruits via the lax coach. As stated previously, if recruit knows upfront you passed the preread so there are no red flags but nothing is a guarantee until admissions really goes through the process then recruit knows the situation. But reading this thread that does not seem to be the way it is being explained. Recruit and family are being told that they are in and that is the problem. I can say with my two boys and their athletic recruitment at a NESCAC school they went through prereads both passed were then invited to overnights,but coach expressed to them that he could not guarantee admissions but he would do the best that he could to get it pushed through. We were okay with using ED under those parameters.
@fleishmo6 , that’s right. NESCAC and everyone says “no guarantee”. Same with us. Nobody is going to promise and they should qualify by saying that or words to that effect.
The problem is, even though they say that, anecdotal evidence suggests that it’s a high hit rate, and I believe that it is.
At Haverford, apparently it’s not.
The key is the difference. At Hav, the coach may need to say what the coaches at U of Chicago say: “Listen, I like you, but we have no pull with admissions. YOu’re going to be evaluated like the kid from North Dakota and the one who plays the flute.”