Attending an Ivy League school results in higher income

College Search & Selection
21

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Cayuga my question to you is this, why do students have to be "naive and impressionable" to want to attend a top university and believe that they receive certain opportunities not found elsewhere.

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<p>Students are doing themselves a disservice if they believe the opportunities at Harvard or not of the same quality and type provided to them at Michigan or Berkeley. So students who may choose Michigan or Berkeley over Harvard shouldn't lose sleep over the fact that they are turning down Harvard. Sure, you won't have the Hasty Pudding Parade or Finals Clubs, but the American economy and its meritocracy are largely blind to these luxuries.</p>

<p>Of course, Harvard is now offering so much money that this type of situation is becoming increasingly rare.</p>

<p>Similarly, if a student is from the South and really wants to play football at a Division III college, they may be better off choosing Emory or even a school like Elon over a place like the University of Chicago. It can become a question of fit over prestige pretty quickly.</p>

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<p>Bescraze: I'd agree but depending on what school. Comp Sci/Engineering/Tepper/Drama/Design/Architecture does surpass some/many Ivies, whereas Humanities usually falls short. IE: CMU Engineering's salaries/top companies almost mirror Cornell's, and both are above some of the Ivies that are weak in engineering.</p>

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So students who may choose Michigan or Berkeley over Harvard shouldn't lose sleep over the fact that they are turning down Harvard.

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<p>The problem such students don't really exist beyond the anecdotal. I don't know about Harvard but I know MIT loses at most 2 or 3 students per year to Berkeley and sometimes zero to Michigan. It can't be much more at Harvard. Furthermore, even D&K found a significant advantage to greater spending per student. </p>

<p>Even Bill Gates who dropped out of Harvard recognized Microsoft would probably not have been the same company had he not attended the college. </p>

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What I remember above all about Harvard was being in the midst of so much energy and intelligence. It could be exhilarating, intimidating, sometimes even discouraging, but always challenging. It was an amazing privilege – and though I left early, I was transformed by my years at Harvard, the friendships I made, and the ideas I worked on.

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<p>He ended up recruiting one of his buddies from Harvard, Steve Ballmer who can be largely credited with making the IBM MS-DOS deal happen.</p>

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<p>And Michael Dell went to UT-Austin and Steve Jobs dropped out of Reed.</p>

<p>Your point being?</p>

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<p>My point is simply that there is no data to show that attending a top public over HYPSM will yield similar outcomes as such students don't really exist (in meaningful numbers). All the evidence is that elite private schools provide benefits well beyond the fact that they enroll smart students. The Gates reference was nothing more than an example of the "peer effect" and spending per student effect recognized by the D&K study.</p>

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<p>ifecollegeguy, I totally agree that for those academic pursuits, things chance. Yet, for people who are interesting in professional careers in business, law and medicine, the Ivies do provide more opportunities than say schools like Michigan and Berkley, which are less selective and much larger.</p>

27

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That my exact point. If you have a 175 on the LSAT and 4.0 GPA you may have a chance from anywhere.

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If by chance you mean "sure thing", then yes.</p>

<p>I am speaking as someone with a 4.165 LSAC GPA and a 175 LSAT score BTW.</p>

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That is a fairly rare applicant, probably from another top school anyway. With most applicants bunched in a narrow range of LSAT scores and GPAs the tie-breaker often happens to be the link to the school. Not surprisingly Harvard law is one of the few schools with a formal interview process for its applicants.

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<p>This just shows your ignorance about the HLS admission process. Very few applicants interview, and of those that do somewhere around 4/5 get admitted. People who are considered to be very strong candidates get called by Toby Stock, and then they talk to him for about 20 minutes. Many many people get in without such a phone call. I would describe it as a likely letter, but the catch is if you screw up then you are totally **ucked</p>

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<p>I'd be willing to wager that there are more doctors coming out of UM and UCB undergrad than any Ivy.<br>
If Ballmer did indeed work on the IBM deal it's the last smart thing he did at Microsoft. Steve Jobs runs circles around him and the entire Microsoft Army.</p>

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<p>^^^ uhhh well aren't those schools significantly bigger than most Ivies. The better question would be who has more successfull doctors--I would wager its the Ivies.</p>

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<p>Opportunity is opportunity. You make of it what you will. The Ivy schools get the pick of the crop. Obviously per capita they should do better as most success goes with ability--not the school and that is inborn.</p>

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I'd be willing to wager that there are more doctors coming out of UM and UCB undergrad than any Ivy.

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<p>Not quite. My understanding is that Cornell actually produces more students who go on to be MDs or PhDs in the life sciences than any other school in the country. But this is mostly due to one of the publicly supported schools at Cornell, and Cornell is basically a Big 10 school in disguise. So it's alright.</p>

<p>Cornell</a> Team & Leadership Center - About Us - About Cornell University</p>

<p>Of course, I agree that it is mostly the student, and not the school. But the school can provide pretty sunsets, neat swimming holes, and a kick ass hockey team.</p>

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<p>^^^^ Overall numbers don't mean ****. Adjust that for class size, and you might have something which matters..</p>

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<p>Adjust for average SAT an you might have something too. Any school taking the top 1% of students should do well. It's the schools taking the top 25% and making something out of them that have it harder. As the H dean said, we take the best and try not to screw them up too much.</p>

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<p>Absolute number of PhDs awarded to students in the last ten years, by undergrad institution:</p>

<pre><code> STEM Life Sciences
</code></pre>

<p>Brown University 323 322
Columbia University 245 167
Cornell University 925 966
Dartmouth College 192 178
Harvard University 604 556
Princeton University 532 302
University of Pennsylvania 337 362
Yale University 316 342
Total </p>

<p>As percentage of graduating class:
STEM Life Sciences
University of Pennsylvania 1.4% 1.5%
Columbia University 1.7% 1.2%
Dartmouth College 1.9% 1.7%
Cornell University 2.7% 2.9%
Brown University 2.2% 2.2%
Princeton University 4.3% 2.5%
Yale University 2.4% 2.6%
Harvard University 3.7% 3.4%</p>

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<p>I'm finally glad to find some SUBSTANTIVE evidence that shows that the BRAND NAME you went to school matters the MOST if you want to have a rich and successful life. </p>

<p>Again, think about this: JOBS. The two jobs out there that are guarantee to provide you with a lifetime of wealth, prestige, and respect (that are not doctors or lawyers) are: investment banker or management consultant. </p>

<p>I was one of the very few people from my Top 50 who got an investment banking job, but I majored in business finance. Out of my analyst class, there was one of me and two from Rutgers, and all of us were business finance majors. The rest were people from the Ivies. And what were their majors? English literature, communications, economics, liberal arts. These Ivy League graduates had NEVER taken a BUSINESS CLASS (w/ exception of economics majors) yet they were hired by big time brokerage firms and investment banks. </p>

<p>Investment banks and management consulting firms are probably the only two fields that will allow you to make significant income (possibly even be millionaires) by the age of 30. And you know what? Once you make that much, you're allowed to retire early and can pursue whatever dreams you want.</p>

<p>I personally know a Chinese American filmmaker who retired at the age of 30. She worked at McKinsey Company as a management consultant and is now financially secured for the rest of her life. She's ONLY in her early 30s and she's financially secured for her life. Think about it. </p>

<p>She graduated from Harvard and Harvard Business School and now gets to pursue her passions in filmmaking. </p>

<p>If she didn't go to Harvard and become a management consultant, would she be able to retire at age 30 and become a filmmaker? </p>

<p>Investment banks, management consulting firms, and other top companies DON'T CARE about what job skills you have, your GPA, or your resume. All they CARE about is you going to a top brand name school. If you have that (and provided you don't screw up in the interview -- which is hard to do, just don't sound like a dumbarse), then you'll get the job.</p>

<p>Ivy League graduates don't have very high standards to meet when it comes to getting jobs at top investment banks and consulting firms. They can major in pathetic subjects like medieval history, women's studies, Asian studies, and English literature, and they will get the job over the top business school graduates from TTTs (third tier toilets). </p>

<p>And elite schools being the Top 100? You're joking. At best, the elite schools are the US News Top 25 - 30 National Universities, and Top 5 LACs.</p>

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<p>Michigan v. Ivies</p>

<p>From what I know, there are no GPA cutoffs when it comes to interviewing for top firms (management consulting, investment banks, etc.) at the Ivies. You can also major in the most pathetic majors possible (art history, women's studies, African studies, etc.), and top firms will still interview you.</p>

<p>On the other hand, at Michigan, while an elite university in its own right, still has GPA cutoffs. Maybe a Michigan alum can clarify this for me, but I believe that at Michigan (and other Top 20 - 40 university), you need at least a 3.3 GPA and you had to have taken some business courses (not necessarily be a business major). Again, this is just an estimate.</p>

<p>At my Top 50 university (barely a Tier 1), when I matriculated there (back in 2000), the GPA cutoffs were fairly low because the economy was doing great so top investment banks and management consulting firms could delve deeply into my alma mater. Back then, I think the GPA cutoff was only 3.2 for an interview. Nowadays, the GPA cutoff at my Top 50 alma mater is a 3.7, and the top firms ONLY recruit business finance majors (not even marketing majors have a shot). </p>

<p>So where you go to school makes tremendous difference. Yes, it may be four years of hardship, and the management consulting/investment banking job itself is hell (I worked an average of 60-80 hours a week), but it's worth it because you get huge income streams (at the place I work, you still earn income even after leaving the place). </p>

<p>At managment consulting firms, you get royalty-like payments (similar to musicians and entertainers) so even if you're no longer active at the firm, you can still get payments. After leaving the firm, you're free to pursue whatever passions you want.</p>

<p>By way of example, I am friends with a Chinese American woman who's now a filmmaker after working at McKinsey. I have another Chinese friend who's pursuing acting and photography full time after a long stint at McKinsey.</p>

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<p>^^Exactly--thats why brand name matters whatever some other people like to assert.</p>

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<p>Something from the NYT. Most people do not make that far even after getting in, FYI. And for ivy leaguers who major in something else besides finance, they'll be the first to get axed. Get real!</p>

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ON Monday, Nov. 5, the New York press reported that a prestigious Wall Street house -- that happened to be my employer -- intended to lay off two-thirds of its investment banking staff of about 120. Since I was one of the last people to arrive and because big corporations tend to handle their personnel by the last-in-first-out method, it occurred to me that I would be smart to stand near the elevator. This prediction turned out to be accurate and on Wednesday, Nov. 7, my successful, but truncated Wall Street career of 61 days -- including three working Sundays -- came to an end.
Hardly 10 months before, I had been a senior at Dartmouth College majoring in Russian area studies. Like the majority of my classmates, I labored over the immediate direction of my post-graduation life. To those who knew me, I was the Russian kid, pegged for a trip to graduate school or maybe another stint in the Soviet Union poring over the works of Pushkin and Gogol.
But then I began to flirt with another idea. The flurry of political change in Eastern Europe captivated me. I had studied in Budapest for a semester and decided that I wanted to play a role in the economic transformation of the region. With only a skeletal background in finance and economics, I needed training and experience. I decided to turn to Wall Street. With recruiting in full swing, I tossed out my Nikes and "Das Kapital" for an HP-12C calculator and a pair of shiny wingtips.
In February, when representatives of the Wall Street firm visited my campus for interviews, I was selected to come to New York for a pressure filled interview that students call "Super Saturday." On the Friday evening before the interview, the firm hosted 50 students of widely different backgrounds from colleges and universities across the country at a dinner at the St. Moritz. We dined on prime rib and exhibited our best table manners while we got ready for the following day's competition. Later that night, in the Mai Tai lounge, everyone was fantasizing about careers in investment banking and about prestige, power and million-dollar salaries by the age of 32.
I interviewed with representatives of the firm all day Saturday. During one session, I was assured by a vice president (who incidentally was dismissed before I arrived for work) that the firm could give me the financial training and potential to tap the developing East European market. Easing back in his huge leather chair, he spoke of the firm's mission to become a "full-service, global investment and merchant bank."
A week later, I received an offer of $32,500 to join the firm and train to become an investment-banking analyst specializing in bankruptcies and corporate restructurings. I was one of six students hired and I stopped pursuing other opportunities.
In June, I left Dartmouth with what was described as a bright future and headed for New York. In truth my brief career was interesting, and very challenging; and there was every indication that my performance was appreciated. With only seven weeks of training, I was making "quick and dirty calculations" and "taking first whacks" at discounted cash flow analyses. With this background, the suddenness of my departure was an education in itself. All six of us hired were dismissed the same day. Hardly had we come through the front door when we were shown the back door.
My new phone (installed only two days before) summoned me to my execution. Fortunately, I was the fourth person called into the exit interview, so I had some advance intelligence. The man who discharged me -- the head of the financial strategies group -- was someone I had never seen before. To me it was apparent that he was both nervous and embarrassed by his role.
"Look," I said, "we both know what is going to happen here. Please just tell me the terms of the termination and I'll go quietly." He laid them out for me while obviously relieved at not having to sing the company song. The first time he was able to make eye contact was when we stood and shook hands at my departure. After I was fired, the only time I saw any of my supervisors, or the people who had recruited me, was when I met one of them accidentally while gathering my personal belongings. No one came to say goodbye. </p>

<p>I feel fortunate, in a way, to have taken the hit so early in my career. My sympathy is with my older colleagues -- the ones who had been with the firm for years and had built careers on Wall Street -- and to my fellow trainees who had big dreams of Wall Street. As for me, the experience has moved me back to my first love -- Russian area studies. Now I am better able to understand how people there may feel as their system and its apparatchiks are whisked out the door.

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<p>middsmith, I appreciate your post, but with all due respect, this guy lasted barely two months at the job. </p>

<p>in order to get royalty-like payments at an i-bank or management consulting firms, you need to be loyal and stay with them for at least 3 to 5 years. You have to go through the grind to reap what you sow. </p>

<p>I'm Asian (Chinese) who graduated from a Top 50 university (a Chinese guy who graduates from a Top 50 university = white person graduating from third tier school) and was VERY fortunate to get a good job in Wall Street. However, my stint was for only two years and a half (I myself am a victim of the recent economic mess in Wall Street) and I'm not receiving much in the way of "royalties", but I do know they exist (it's like private pension for the under-30 crowd). Why? Because I have Chinese friends who are still getting paid even though they quit or were laid off from their cushy Wall Street jobs! </p>

<p>One trend I've noticed lately with a lot of my Chinese/Korean friends is that they work in investment banking or management consulting for several years, then leave to pursue their own passions after making enough money to last them for most of their lives. One of my closest Chinese friends is a Harvard and Stanford business school graduate, and he tells me that he always had dreams of being an actor and professional photographer. But his parents pushed him to go to Harvard even though he wanted to go to an art school. He was glad that his parents pushed him to Harvard and that he endured five "brutal" years at McKinsey after graduating Harvard and six more brutal years after earning a Stanford MBA (which McKinsey fully subsidized). He says that if he didn't go to Harvard undergrad and Stanford business school, he would probably he living hand to mouth doing low-paid jobs. </p>

<p>But because my Chinese friend went to Harvard and Stanford business school and earned enough money from his services at McKinsey (however brutal they were, he made top dollar and was already a millionaire before 35), he can pursue his acting and professional photography dreams without financial worry. </p>

<p>His message is that in Chinese culture, if you make a lot of sacrifices early on and defer gratification and dreams, you'll benefit in the long run. He's now pursuing his dreams because he went to Harvard and he's financially set at the age of 35. Think about it. At 35, his financial future is set and now he can dedicate his time to take acting classes and be a professional photographer.</p>

<p>Another interesting story is a Korean friend of mine who went to Harvard undergrad and Harvard Law. She practiced corporate law at a Top 5 law firm and even became partner at the age of 31. She left five years later after making enough money as partner to write children's books. Writing children's books has always been her real passion since a teenager, but she delayed that dream so that she can earn an education and make enough money to retire at age 36. By 36, she can devote her time to being a full time children's author.</p>

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<p>you missed the point. I'm trying to say that even if you graduated from an ivy with some random major, chances are you will not last very long. if you think by going to an ivy school will get you the golden ticket, oh boy, time to wake up and smell the KY.</p>