attending large university when student wants small LAC type school? Warning; long

Parents Forum
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<p>Warning, way long, thanks in advance. Anybody have a kid who wanted to attend a small school but ended up at a large university due to financial reasons, how did they do, good or bad? </p>

<p>I’ve got a son who’s been at the same private prep school since 5k, senior class of 46 students, teachers he’s known for years. He’s used to teachers who hold study sessions at Starbucks, show up early and stay late for help if needed, mentor clubs, host events in their homes for students etc.. He’s never had a class with over 22 students in it, and 90% of his classes have had 15 or less students. </p>

<p>He wants to study engineering, has not decided on a field, but he wants a small school and one with a less rigid engineering curriculum because he thinks he’d like to double major, he loves history and improv, wants to study abroad, in other words he’s looking for a liberal arts education w/engineering emphasis as opposed to only a technical engineering school. </p>

<p>He’s got to have large amounts of aid, both need and merit, due to the fact that while he was in middle school, his father was diagnoses with early onset dementia, and without the gory details, means for all intents and purposes there is no earning potential for his father, I work 2 part-time jobs as I need maximum flexibility to provide supervision and make doctor’s appts etc.. We have major expense outgo and very minimal support as there are few services for Alzheimer’s and dementia patients in Texas and the vast majority of those do not provide services for early onset, they are setup for 62 or 65 and older. This means that I could have to quit working entirely on very short notice, if his dad condition deteriorates to that point. </p>

<p>Accordingly we cast our college net far and wide. He has six schools that say they will meet full need, most w/no loan policies for our income level. He will not hear from these schools until March 30th, April 1st. I would say he has a fair chance at two; maybe 3 of those, the others will be high reaches. My mind has been completely blown by the number of applicants these full need schools have received, you’ve got to assume that most of those applicants are possibly qualified, with the exception of the few apps that the admissions office must wonder “what were they thinking”, so the odds are not good for these schools.</p>

<p>He’s been accepted to 4 private schools, Tulane, SMU, Baylor and LeTourneau, with merit aid, merit aid being the highest at SMU (which probably has the most expensive COA), lowest at Tulane, these schools do not guarantee full need, we’re waiting on packages to see need based aid but I’m not holding my breath. </p>

<p>So based on information I received on CC son applied to University of Alabama where he received full OOS tuition, a small amount above tuition and has been accepted into the honors program. He has not visited, but we will before he will have to commit. Sons HS insisted he apply to either UT Austin or A&M, even though he’s not top 8% (gpa hit freshman year due to family turmoil). Son loves the Austin area (hence Baylor which he really liked), but is opposed to UT Austin for a number of reasons, so chose A&M. I was not hopeful, 75% of their incoming class is forced top 8% leaving little room for additional admits, so I assumed they’d want OOS students or URM. But GC said they weren’t sure what direction UT & A&M would head with the extra, so he applied in early Dec, was accepted about 2 wks later and given a scholarship of $5000 a year. He is Texas Grant qualified and should receive that, if the folks in Austin don’t gut the program for next year. We haven’t visited, (he’s been w/the school on their Tour of Texas colleges), but will visit next week during our spring break. This was the only one he had to choose an engineering major to apply (he chose mechanical) so they have a rigid engineering track. We have not really researched this school as it was not on our radar, so I know nothing about advising, honors, housing, learning as we go. </p>

<p>Then he applied to UT Tyler, (very small) which has a very small engineering program, he received a $4000 yr scholarship, has an interview for the honors program the 21st which will most likely result in an acceptance w/an additional scholarship. He has attended an engineering camp there, likes the faculty and they like him and would love to have him attend there. If it came to it, he could live with his grandfather in Tyler. </p>

<p>Then there’s LA Tech, (bigger than UT Tyler, but still small) where he received an OOS tuition waiver, a merit scholarship and a GPA/ACT score upgrade. They have a much lower COA than the other 3, also making them a financial safety. We did visit them, they have a hodge-podge campus, not a real selective student body, on the downside, but some very nice new buildings and faculty and an engineering honors program w/some very nice perks and that the students must have either a 28 or 29 on the math section of the ACT (son has a 33), so he’d be in many small classes w/that group. They have a common 1st year engineering track, so he doesn’t have to choose a major yet. He doesn’t have to interview for honors it is automatic. </p>

<p>There are a couple of other publics he’s still waiting to hear about scholarships, one had a Feb 28th scholarship deadline, so it may be awhile, so these 4 are the top that I know we can afford now. Out of the 4 there’s no denying that A&M has the highest ranking engineering program and I’m guessing Univ, of AL would be next, but both those are the very opposite of what son prefers. They are huge, don’t offer a lot of chances for outside track classes, problems w/scheduling, probably TA’s in some if not many classes etc.. Those don’t seem like they would be a problem at the other 2. If it was another major besides engineering, I would just let him choose, but everything we’ve read or heard so far indicates that for engineering undergraduate school does matter. </p>

<p>Son is easy-going, happy 99% of the time and corny as it sounds, can find something good in nearly anyone except he can’t tolerate people who cheat or steal, (that cheating issue turned him off a few schools he considered applying to, when he found out they had problems in that area) He’s flexible in most areas, for instance he’s not the least bit interested in drinking or partying and stays away from those who do, (yes I know that may change, he’s my 2nd off to college), as long as it doesn’t affect him, he really doesn’t care what others do. I think he’d do fine in any environment, but I could be completely wrong. So I’m wondering how hard I should push to get him to consider A&M or UofAL. It is true that it would be a completely different environment than he’s ever experienced, anyone sent one to a big school when they wanted a little one? Did it work okay, fail miserably or exceed beyond expectations? I’m especially interested in anyone who has sent students to any of these 4 schools.</p>

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<p>Hi Scribbulus.
I have several thoughts on your son’s predicament, but one issue in particular jumps out at me.</p>

<p>I would say that, first things first, your son needs to decide just how much he wants to study engineering. Does he want to be an engineer for a living? If so, he’s pretty much going to have to have a rigid engineering curriculum, no matter where he goes to school. Nearly all the engineering programs across the country are accredited and therefore require almost exactly the same courses, in a very similar, rather rigid sequence. Employers will expect a specific education from him if he wants to be an engineer. (As an aside, the concept of double-majoring, combing an engineering major with a liberal arts major, is appealing to lots of kids – it’s also nearly impossible to do – because of the rigid track.)</p>

<p>So, if your son wants to be an engineer, that will change the nature of your question, and it will eliminate any choice of “a liberal arts education with an engineering emphasis.” There’s really no such thing, if he what he ultimately wants to do is be an engineer.</p>

<p>There is, however, a program that one of my son’s originally found tempting – but it’s more expensive in many cases, and that’s the 3-2 program. A lot of great liberal arts schools offer this option. Your son would attend any of a number of excellent liberal arts schools around the country for 3 years, taking liberal arts courses and all math and sciences required of an engineer, followed by 2 years at another associated university, where he would finish up his engineering degree. Just off the top of my head, schools like Wash U and Vanderbilt have several 3-2 relationships with liberal arts colleges like McAlester, Emory, U of Richmond, Reed College, and plenty of others, where students can follow a planned track and ultimately earn an engineering degree (and if my memory serves me, a liberal arts degree as well) at the end of the 5 years.</p>

<p>As I said, it’s more expensive. And our research into such a thing a year ago led us to believe that any merit scholarships earned at the 3-year liberal arts school would not follow my son to the 2-year engineering school. (But need-based aid should continue to be good, I’d think.)</p>

<p>Anyway, I would say that’s the first thing your son has to decide. His answer to that question would determine my answer to the rest of your questions.</p>

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<p>As well as asking about 3/2 programs, I would find out from some of these schools if it would be possible to extend financial aid for a fifth year to earn a liberal arts degree in addition to an engineering degree. We were advised at Pitt a few years ago, for instance, that a student could petition to receive an extra two semesters of a full-tuition merit scholarship in such cases, although not for another engineering major. I do not know if or where this would be possible for your son, but it is worth asking about.</p>

<p>You might also want to look into engineering co-op programs, especially if money is a big issue. In these programs, a student takes longer to graduate, but will have good work experience on their resume as well as some extra earnings from paid positions. Schools with co-op should have designated offices that provide information about recent placement and earnings.</p>

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<p>I don’t have any specific advice to offer. I just want to say that you have my condolences for the situation you are in with your spouse but you sound as though you are doing a wonderful job coping with the lemons that life has given you. Your children and husband are very fortunate to have such a responsible, caring mother and wife. Good luck to you and your son.</p>

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<p>You and your sone have done a terrific job in applying to a variety of school. You’ve done exactly what you should do. When you have all of the information, you can then sit down and chart the advantages vs disadvantages of each one.</p>

<p>In my opinion, it is important how your son likes the school as a whole as well as the way the engineering department is run. Kids change their minds about their majors all of the time, and engineering does have a lot of kid who leave that major. It sounds as though he is a very able student who can do well in any engineering department. With some kids whose scores are border line for the maths and sciences and whose education may not be rigorous in high school, I think that a smaller engineering department, perhaps at a LA school could make the difference between fail and succeed. I don’t get that sense from what you have said about your son. He can do the academics any where, so it really comes down to the finances and then what environment he prefers. </p>

<p>My experience with many engineering majors is that graduating with that degree is the big deal, not what school gave it to you. I’ve seen MIT kids right next to XYZ Tech kids who had the same curriculum. Of all of the different majors and courses of study, engineering seems to be one where the focus is on the degree and courses taken, not the school. </p>

<p>Good luck. I think your son will have a lot of good choices, and he will be fine with any of them.</p>

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<p>I’d also like to offer my condolences to you… In terms of programs, I would not suggest he go for a 3/2 program; very few students end up completing the 2year part. After 3 years at a school, most do not want to change campuses and find new friends and connections so late in the game.
If he’s easy-going and self-directed, he should be able to transition to a big campus. How close does he want to be to home? If all things are fairly equal financially, let him make the decision…
And, jmho - although Texas A&M has a gorgeous engineering building, we did not like the flat town, the conservative (and fairly homophobic) student body, and the ugly campus one bit… I know many Aggies’ who just adore their alma mater, so sorry, Aggie fans… ;)</p>

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<p>

For those under $75k/year income, I believe Tulane meets 100% of need on tuition with no loans. Overall (including room&board), I think they meet something like 97% of need, so you may be surprised.</p>

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<p>Sounds like you have a great son.</p>

<p>Calvin College in Grand Rapids MI has a 3-2 program. As I recall about 3k students in the school. We went there for a prospective student event day and they discussed the program (I hope I am remebering correctly…been a few years). Seems like a nice school although not right for my D.</p>

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<p>My sympathies as well on the personal issues.</p>

<p>Also it sounds like we have a kid match as well – firstborn went to same college prep independent school K-12 with a graduating class under 40 and decided on a huge OOS Top 10 Public due at least in part to their great science programs. After visiting MegaU as well as 2 very nice smaller Universities, not only did he decide he liked MegaU a lot better he also received a huge scholarship which sweetened the pot. Being accepted to the Honors program probably helped the transition though the Honors program is probably bigger than his whole K-12. I think he really enjoyed being at a larger place after the very small school and small town life.</p>

<p>So far he’s loved it and has done exceptionally well nearly 3 years into a rigorous Double Major. It probably helps that he’s always been incredibly self motivated and wasn’t really interested in the party scene. He found his group of friends and always has something to do if he wants. </p>

<p>I also have quite a few connections with UA and encourage you to visit. It’s not your daddy;s Alabama and while it’s not UT yet, it’s an aggressively up and coming academic University in addition to what it’s always been (Football and Social Life). It’s just an amazing place compared to when I was there. If you haven’t been over the the UA section, go and talk to the Parens and kids about the University and Engineering programs.</p>

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<p>You and your son have done an excellent job creating multiple options for your son.</p>

<p>It is possible to do a double major with engineering but it would likely require some extra time and some semesters of very heavy course scheduling. DD had an engineering/biology double major. She did take courses one full summer to fulfull her degree requirements.</p>

<p>Re: size…once your son declares his major, he will find that he is spending the bulk of his time with the engineering majors, not with the vast number of other students at even a larger university. Our son went to a university with 35,000 students and he found he spent most of his time with the folks in his major…a smaller number by far.</p>

<p>As mentioned…the rigor of engineering programs doesn’t vary much from school to school. If your son is planning to take the PE exam at some point, his program should be an accredited one, and these don’t have much variance in course selection.</p>

<p>Re: study abroad…that was one thing DD was unable to do. She would have been completely out of sequence on her courses and a term abroad would have necessitated an extra FULL year at her school…something we were not prepared to pay for. I have heard that there are some schools with study abroad programs for engineering students. This is something you need to ask UP FRONT. At DD’s schools the engineering majors did not participate in the study abroad programs.</p>

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<p>Not too much to add to what others have said. There are some specific programs for engineering abroad. I believe my niece is doing one in Ireland. (She’s a junior in Civil Engineering.) I agree that even at a big uni, most kids find their niche - often in a smaller major sometimes through activities. A big college with a somewhat smaller engineering department might provide the right atmosphere. I think come April kids are generally pretty good about figuring what’s the best deal for them - keeping in mind both fit and finances. If you can visit again and/or go to accepted students events that can often be quite helpful.</p>

<p>So sorry about your husband. My mil had early onset dementia and it was very difficult.</p>

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<p>How “rigid” an engineering curriculum is depends on the major. For example, electrical engineering is a rather broad field, encompassing fields/waves/communications, power generation and transmission, semiconductor electronics, digital design, and computer architecture. At schools where the major is called “electrical and computer engineering” or “electrical engineering and computer science”, computer software and theory may also be available as major courses. But much of the flexibility of courses will be within the major.</p>

<p>Double majoring with an unrelated area like history will likely be very difficult, although a minor may be doable if the minor courses simultaneously fulfill (humanities and social studies) breadth requirements in the engineering program.</p>

<p>Getting a 5 in the AP Calculus (preferably BC) exam may help in making the schedule less rigid by allowing starting math a semester or year early, and physics a semester early.</p>

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<p>Regarding study abroad, Scribulus, many of the schools my son has been looking at have really good study abroad options for engineers during the summer months. That way, he can study abroad and not interfere with his four year engineering track.</p>

<p>(When I said double majoring with a liberal arts and an engineering major was next to impossible to do, I should have added “in four years.” As others have pointed out, if your son can afford to stay longer than four years, then the sky’s the limit! :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>My son has many of the same interests as yours. We have therefore researched many of the same things. He originally wanted to attend an LAC and major in engineering (SMU is one good option for that, we think), as well as study abroad, take a lot of history courses, stick to smaller-than-large-public schools, and keep it all affordable with merit scholarships. He, too, is looking closely at Alabama. Their honors programs are fantastic. We think it’ll be a good fit for him, as will the other schools on his list (A&M, Baylor, & SMU, in common with your son).</p>

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<p>(((hugs))) to you on the personal issues. But as others have said, y’all have done a great job of giving him lots of choices.</p>

<p>I’m going to speak up in favor of a tour of A&M. It was in my ds’s final two, deciding between it and a LAC 1,000 miles away. We were all quite surprised how much we liked it. Ds wanted strong academics and a strong sense of community. You can’t beat the hard-core, rah-rah nature of A&M. Like your ds, my ds is an easy-going, bloom-where-planted kind of kid. I know tons of kids – liberal all of them – who love A&M, and only one who has left (he applied only to A&M and a bunch of reaches; A&M was his only option). As I said, ds picked the other school, but I think it would behoove you to visit with an open mind. Your ds just might love it! It’s true that A&M traditionally has had a conservative – very conservative – bent, but it’s really changing as more kids are opting for it over UT because it’s easier to get into and has greater merit aid. On our tour, I met an old Aggie who was shocked at how “progressive” the campus has become. I started to understand why A&M has the bad rep it does in that regard. ;)</p>

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<p>Thanks for the kind words</p>

<p>We do have relatives that attended A&M, 2 of which like it so much that they now work for the school, so they would be thrilled if he attended. I’m attempting to encourage him to visit with an open mind. I’ve heard good and bad things about the campus. I’m a lifetime Texas resident and have never been on the A&M campus so we shall see. You never know and I’ve learned a little about writing off a school on assumptions. D1 is an art ed major w/a concentration in printmaking. She chose her schools based very much on the beauty of the campus, and the art program. There were not a lot of schools that offered her major, one of the few that did was Texas Tech in Lubbock. I have been to W. Texas many times and based on the size, name and location she didn’t even look at the school because she assumed it would be a flat, treeless campus w/square blocks for buildings, (apparently building esthetics is very important to art majors). But I took S out there last year for a visit and the campus was much prettier than I had imagined (in fact I told D she might consider it for grad school) so perhaps A&M will be the same. It’s the fact of going to a school that is bigger than a lot of towns that freaks him out some to be honest. </p>

<p>He’s not making a decision until after April 1st, I’m just trying to prepare him for the possibility that his 4 least favorite schools will be the ones he has to choose from. Thankfully he didn’t apply to any schools he would absolutely rule out w/the exception of A&M, as it’s the one we didn’t research at all before he applied) </p>

<p>He was accepted to Lamar and University of Arkansas also, w/some merit money, but those 2 are at the very bottom of the list and since these others are doable, we can rule them out. He also has been accepted to Arkansas Tech, was invited to interview for the honors program and scholarships, but the interview fell in the middle of mid-term exam week at high school and as this would have been a 2 night 3 day thing he didn’t go. The honors head said if he absolutely couldn’t come she would consider him for the round of interview in January, but he didn’t hear back and received a letter saying all the spots were filled. This one was my fault, we could have talked to the US head and made arrangements w/his teachers to take his exams the week before during class-time, but it never crossed my mind that he would be penalized for this, as I don’t think the early option would have been available at the public schools in our town. He’s still in the running for their regular merit scholarships but I think without the honors money that school would not be affordable for us. </p>

<p>Tulane was suggested by our GC who knows our situation, so as mentioned they may surprise us w/the aid package. They do have a 3/2 program there, but I’m thinking he’d be doing the engineering physics if he went to Tulane. We’ve not visited because of distance, but if the aid package is doable we will. </p>

<p>His top instate choice is Rice but that will be a reach due to lopsided test scores and a GPA from a school that doesn’t weight (I’m of two minds on this, on one hand, yes he has friends w/higher GPA’s but limited or no APs or advanced classes so is that fair, but OTH kids w/the potential to perform at a higher level, should they get extra points based on ability. I’d be less on the fence if an 80 and an 89 didn’t both pull the same 3.0 in the calculation, and yes as you can guess the only B son got last year was an 89 in AP Language), but it is what it is.</p>

<p>He’s also applied to Lafayette College and he’s been contacted by both his regional admissions person and the dean of admissions and been told the school is trying to attract more students from our region (heck I think the whole state), the regional rep told me that most of the top kids at the Texas schools he’s visited go UT or A&M.
To be truthful, I have no idea what his odds are at any of the reach schools he’s applied to, while CC has given me a lot of useful information, it has also pointed out how many other amazing kids are out there. So we’ll just wait and see on those. </p>

<p>He doesn’t so much want to double major in history, just the chance to take history classes. If he doubles at SMU it will most likely be in physics or possibly math. He knows he wants to continue to a higher level, he’s interested in the research/design facet of engineering and is interested in optics (which I’m thinking is a branch of electrical engineering), things like roller coaster design (which I’m guessing would be mechanical and physics) and environmental/green issues, which is why he’s all over the map at this point. He CAN rule out chemical and bio-mechanical which I guess is a start. He should go in w/some AP credits and depending on the school, some dual credit college classes as well. Ironically although he has an 89 for AP English Language junior year, he has a 4.0 in the corresponding English classes at the college level due to dual credit. I’m not sure what to make of the fact that grading is more rigorous at his high school than at the local CC they do their dual credit though; again it’s just one of those things that just is. </p>

<p>We will be getting over to University of Al after April 1st, it does seem like Alabama has the foresight to invest in higher education instead of cutting it, like my own misguided state. With their willingness to give more than token dollars to top students, coupled w/the fact top students are seeking more affordable options due to the economy, Alabama has positioned themselves well to end up w/great students which in turn will benefit their program. </p>

<p>I really do think he’ll do fine anywhere, it’s just a more a matter of convincing him.</p>

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<p>Scribulus, my son visited Texas A&M this past summer during their SHIP program. He liked it okay. He liked it better than the other Texas state schools he visited (Tech, UT Austin, UT Dallas, and UNT). After he received a very generous scholarship to A&M, he visited again. The second time around, he made a much more personalized visit. He LOVED it.</p>

<p>In our opinions, Texas A&M doesn’t do a very good job highlighting their school during those mass, humongous visits. They’re too big, too impersonal, and the summer (at 110 degrees) is not the best time to feel good about the campus.</p>

<p>Like others here, I highly recommend that you schedule a personalized visit soon. You could begin by contacting the engineering department to see if they could help you set up your visit. Ask if you could be paired with a few different students throughout the day. That was a highlight for my son. One student accompanied us to lunch. One took us on a tour of the dorms. Another took us on a tour of the engineering labs. The students were friendly and humble (yet accomplished) and impressive. We felt great about TAMU when we left! </p>

<p>We do still hear some things that make it less than ideal for my son – we wish there weren’t so many tales of class registration problems; we wish the honors program was a little more “concrete” and “discernable” and “engaging?”; we wish that entry level classes weren’t destined to be 200-300 kids; etc. These are things that may well lead my son to Alabama or a private school (if he earns the right amount of scholarship money) over Texas A&M. But right now, TAMU is a very viable, attractive alternative.</p>

<p>Good luck to you and your son!</p>